Off topic but interesting and bizarre ...

02/22/2007 08:17:18 PM · #103

Originally posted by TCGuru:

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
How about oral sex or sodomy between consenting adults or smoking pot. These are illegal in in Arizona. Do you think I should be thrown in jail for that?

Remind me never to move to Arizona ;) LOL

OOPS <closes eyes>

gotta' ... get the image ....out of my head... kinda' like walking in on one's parents...
eeeeek - lalalalala flowers and bunny rabbits, lalalala

02/22/2007 08:19:37 PM · #104

Originally posted by Brad:

Originally posted by TCGuru:

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
How about oral sex or sodomy between consenting adults or smoking pot. These are illegal in in Arizona. Do you think I should be thrown in jail for that?

Remind me never to move to Arizona ;) LOL

OOPS <closes eyes>

gotta' ... get the image ....out of my head... kinda' like walking in on one's parents...
eeeeek - lalalalala flowers and bunny rabbits, lalalala

Uh hu, you know you wanna look :P

02/22/2007 08:21:58 PM · #105

02/22/2007 08:23:49 PM · #106

and hiding behind a couch ain't gonna save you!!!

02/22/2007 08:26:53 PM · #107

Officially in progress

Message edited by author 2007-02-22 20:28:30.

02/22/2007 08:30:26 PM · #108

Originally posted by Brad:

Officially in progress

AT LEAST IT IS A HAPPIER TOPIC!! :D lol

02/22/2007 09:04:11 PM · #109

meanwhile, everyone else is just kickin' back waiting to see where this goes.

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

02/22/2007 10:24:22 PM · #110

So I see LOL o.O

neophyte

Nikon D810

02/22/2007 10:37:57 PM · #111

Originally posted by eyewave:

Originally posted by super-dave:

for all the wonderful liberal attitudes that we have, i do believe that the penal system in most western countries simply doesn't work.

The US already have the most restrictive penal systems, still they are among the western nations with the highest crime rates. As far as I know, only Brazil and South Africa are worse.

Try a stint in a Mexican or Guatemalan prison. They're much worse (if you survive the local jail.)

pmichaud

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Sigma 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 DC OS for Nikon

02/22/2007 10:43:01 PM · #112

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

My only comment about the thread is that I doubt a single person who has complained that prison is "too easy" has seen the inside of a prison outside of CSI: Miami. I haven't either, but I doubt I'd last a week in those conditions. Screw the cable. The real punishment comes from the psychological impact of having zero freedom, spending the majority of your day in a 8x8 cell (or tent in this case), and living under the constant threat of violence from fellow inmates or other prison personnel.
The US's view on prison is far too punative instead of reabilitative. We have more prisoners per capita than any other first world country. The United States has 5 percent of the world's population and 25 percent of the world's incarcerated population. (source: Wikipedia) Yet we are still among the worst crime rates.

My personal view is that we are down the wrong path and that going even further down the path is not the solution.

First, I have to say that I am so offended by this callous, incredibly uninformed remark that I find it difficult to respond appropriately. I work for a large state department of corrections and while I am not a correctional officer, I work inside a facility and am in and out of facilities throughout the state (all custody levels from minimum to highest security) on a constant and mostly unannounced basis. I do risk assessments and assist with accident investigations when there has been a serious injury to one of my employees. I have found the people who work inside prison facilities to be, for the most part, decent, hard-working, extremely dedicated individuals who do a difficult, dangerous job and do it very well. They don't deserve to be accused of the sort of brutality you just described.

First, the prison system doesn't get to dictate how many or what kind of offenders they receive. The court system and the parole system has that say. The prison system doesn't get to dictate how much money it has to do the job required of it. The state legislature makes that determination. Right now there are more offenders coming into an already crowded system than there is room for and the system is not allowed to say "we're full". They have to figure out a way to deal with it. There are laws which dictate how offenders are treated and which dictate minimum requirements for living conditions. There are further standards set by the American Correctional Association which dictate nearly every aspect of prison operation. (and each facility goes through constant rigorous inspections to ensure compliance with those standards, and if they fall short,they lose their accreditation.)

The primary goal - at least for the facilities in my state - is safety - safety for the community, safety for the offenders, and safety for the employees. I live in a community where there are nine state correctional facilities including our highest security. There is also a federal complex just down the road about 10 miles which includes the federal super-max. I am thankful every day that my employees and the federal employees are there and doing what they do to keep my community, my children and my neighbors safe. Our state legislature, in its wisdom, cut corrections funding to the bone several years ago - to the point where there were layoffs in all areas, including officers. Because our facilities must be staffed 24/7, we were often running short. I saw people working double after double and saw some people going 17-20 straight days (or evenings or nights) without a day off. I saw our work comp numbers go up because people worked tired, were less vigilant and were therefore more apt to be injured. They knew their work environment became increasingly more dangerous. Yet, they kept going in because they had a job to do.

There are very strict rules in our facilities about how offenders are treated. The kind of treatment you describe is not only not allowed, it would not be tolerated under any circumstances. First, it is counter-productive to safety of staff. Second, it serves no useful purpose. Third, another of the officer's primary responsibilities is to model appropriate behavior for the offender. The punishment aspect of an offender's sentence is being placed in prison and the deprivation of personal freedom. Any use of force against an offender is documented and investigated and there are consequences if found to be unwarranted. If officers observe any behaviors from offenders which might indicate possible altercations, steps are taken to intervene. That doesn't mean it never happens. Of course it does. The majority of offenders aren't in prison because they made good choices on the outside. They don't always make good choices inside either. However, the staff you have accused of brutalizing offenders are very often responsible for saving those offenders' lives.

By the way, five of fifteen work comp claims I handled today involved officers treated for exposure following a "feces bomb". In case you don't know what that is, it's a mixture of blood, urine and feces and possibly other body fluids thrown (usually through a tray slot) at an unsuspecting officer picking up a food tray. It usually manages to hit the officer in the face, and the exposure is to the eyes, nose, and mouth. Considering the high incidence of Hep C and HIV in our offender population, it's critical that these officers receive treatment immediately. I'd like to know how many of you would go back to your job after treatment like that. Most of my foks do.

They don't deserve the accusations you've just hurled.

Greetmir

Nikon D60

02/23/2007 12:15:26 AM · #113

Originally posted by ancientimages:

They don't deserve the accusations you've just hurled.

So ... tell us YOUR opinion of JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF (ARIZONA) and his institution and what you found the last time you were there ... you know ... the article that is the first post and topic of this thread ??? Do you know that all of this is not true? If you think it IS true then you approve?

pmichaud

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

02/23/2007 01:13:56 AM · #114

I never said I had visited Joe Arpaio's facilities. I haven't. He is a county sheriff. I work for a state d.o.c - not in Arizona. I was responding to a specific comment not made by you (which was quoted in full, so as not to taken out of context) insinuating detrimental psychological effects to offenders allegedly fearing for their safety due to physical violence from "prison personnel" - a comment I find truly offensive and uninformed. Sorry if my response was too off-topic for you -- many other comments on this thread were not totally related to the Maricopa County Sheriff's department.

Sheriff Arpaio is somewhat flamboyant, but I think your sources may have exaggerated the situation somewhat. I can't imagine that offenders would be required to stay in 128 degree temperatures because of the health dangers those temperatures would impose and because his staff would also be required to endure those temperatures in order to provide security for the offenders.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

02/23/2007 01:58:24 AM · #115

Originally posted by ancientimages:

First, I have to say that I am so offended by this callous, incredibly uninformed remark that I find it difficult to respond appropriately.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what part was "callous" and what part was "uninformed".

I take it from your response that you disagree that prisoners are under the threat of violence. I've never been in a prison, and maybe I'm relying too much on what I hear in the news or see reported.\

From wikipedia (article "prisons in the united states")
"The non-governmental organization Human Rights Watch raised concerns with prisoner rape and medical care for inmates. [9] In a survey of 1,788 male inmates in Midwestern prisons by Prison Journal, about 21% claimed they had been coerced or pressured into sexual activity during their incarceration and 7% claimed that they had been raped in their current facility.[10]

In August 2003, a Harper's article by Wil S. Hylton estimated that "somewhere between 20 and 40 % of American prisoners are, at this very moment, infected with hepatitis C". Prisons may outsource medical care to private companies such as Correctional Medical Services, which, according to Hylton's research, try to minimize the amount of care given to prisoners in order to maximize profits.

Also identified as an issue, within the prison system is Gang violence, as many gang members retain their gang identity and affiliations when imprisoned. Segregation of identified gang members from the general population of inmates, with different gangs being housed in separate units often results in the imprisonment of these gang members with their friends and criminal cohorts. Some feel this has the effect of turning prisons into "institutions of higher criminal learning". [11]"

Earlier in the article...
"The California penal system (which had 170,588 inmates as of 2007 - 475 behind bars per 100,000 inhabitants) has been the focus of attention for growing influence upon the state's political arena. Former Governor Gray Davis was accused of favoring the prison guard union more than the interests of education. A number of allegations of prisoner abuse give rise to increased attention of the prison oversight committees. Accusations of police guard favoritism by these committees have occurred as well."

I guess you'll have to clear me up on where I went wrong in my assumptions that prison is no walk in the park. I'm certainly not implying that people aren't trying. Certainly dealing with 200% populations is a hopeless cause and I'm thankful people valiantly go to work knowing the impossibility of the situation instead of just quitting on the spot. However, I am quite certain that despite every word you wrote about safety for everybody, violence occurs and that it occurs at a rate higher than outside the prison.

Message edited by author 2007-02-23 01:59:45.

pmichaud

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

02/23/2007 02:59:59 AM · #116

I stand by my opinion that the comment that inmates live under the constant threat of violence from prison personnel is callous and uninformed. I haven't seen that at all. Is the prison environment sometimes prone to violence? yes. Consider the clientele. The officers are there to prevent and deter violence, which they do admirably since they are greatly outnumbered at all times. Are there gang problems? yes. Are they mitigated as much as possible? Yes, they are. Is it possible that things are missed? Of course it is. Prison is not a walk in the park, and if you thought that was the picture I was painting, then I was way off the mark.

Prison rape is a hot topic throughout the country and the Prison Rape Elimination Act (PREA) requires every employee of every department of corrections to be trained, and to report any suspicious activity, to ensure that anyone claiming to be victimized, or appearing to be victimized is treated medically and counseled and that perpetrators are prosecuted. It may not be the total answer to the problem, but it certainly is a step in the right direction. If an officer is accused or convicted of misconduct with an offender, they not only lose their job, but they are criminally prosecuted. If convicted (and it has happened - at least in my state)they do the same sort of time as anyone else and they are permanently followed/registered as sex-offenders - the same as any sex-offender.

I think your Harper's article is fairly accurate about the percentages of offenders infected with Hep C. It is important to note that, because of the lifestyle of many offenders, that most (I would never claim all)exposure occurred outside of the prison environment. In my state, all offenders are tested for Hep C/HIV/TB etc.(along with any other medical condition)at the beginning of their incarceration, and if specialized medical care is needed, it is provided. Medical and mental health staff are employed by the department, and specialists are available as needed. (I think we even have allergists/immunologists as consultants).

Gangs are a problem inside facilities - just as they are a problem outside of facilities. But, at least in my state, there are officers and investigators who specialize in gang cultures and who work very hard to minimize ANY gang interactions. It helps to make the environment safer for everyone.

Again, the statement I find offensive is this: "The real punishment comes from the psychological impact of having zero freedom, spending the majority of your day in a 8x8 cell (or tent in this case), and living under the constant threat of violence from fellow inmates or other prison personnel." That's just not accurate and just not fair. It's an unjust and unfair portrayal of a group of people who are for the most part, a very hard-working, decent group of people, and who deserve far more respect than they are ever accorded. I certainly wouldn't want to do their job every day, but I am truly glad they are there to do it.

Again, is there violence in prison? Yes, sometimes. A violent population is housed there. But don't blame that violence on the personnel who are doing their best to do their job and in so doing to keep you and your children and your community (as well as their offender charges)as safe as humanly possible.

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

02/23/2007 05:34:22 AM · #117

Originally posted by ancientimages:

Again, the statement I find offensive is this: "The real punishment comes from the psychological impact of having zero freedom, spending the majority of your day in a 8x8 cell (or tent in this case), and living under the constant threat of violence from fellow inmates or other prison personnel." That's just not accurate and just not fair. It's an unjust and unfair portrayal of a group of people who are for the most part, a very hard-working, decent group of people, and who deserve far more respect than they are ever accorded.

I think that you are overreacting a little - it's great to see a different view from someone who has practical knowledge. DrAchoo started by saying that he had none - so you have made your point strongly. His comment does not appear to have been intended as a portrayal of the typical prison officer, but to outline a risk from some prison personnel. I would have thought that you would be aware of a popular perception that there are some "bad egg" prison officers - Joe Arpaio is alleged to employ some of them. Maybe the perception is exaggerated - which is good to get some kind of understanding of.

I would be interested in your views on the impact of prison on inmates generally, the purpose of prison, and whether respecting rights to welfare makes prison an easy ride or fails to make it a disincentive to committing crime. Does your institution offer educational facilities, and do you think that they work?

noraneko

Canon EOS-7D

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

02/23/2007 10:49:58 AM · #118

An interesting expert from CNN.com:

Although Arpaio has lowered the prison budget, his unorthodox prison management style has led to some high legal expenses. The country has been hit with hundreds of inmate-related lawsuits, and ordered to pay millions in legal damages. Recent cases include:

In January, the county settled a wrongful-death suit filed by the family of Scott Norberg for $8.5 million. He died, reportedly of asphyxiation, as he struggled with prison guards in 1996.
inmate
The inmates live in tents in a sparse environment without air conditioning

In April, a jury awarded $1.5 million to an inmate denied medical treatment for a perforated ulcer. Tim Griffin, arrested for driving with a suspended license, required several surgeries for the perforated ulcer.

Another former inmate suing Arpaio, Richard Post, a paraplegic, claims guards treated him brutally and caused spinal cord damage.

Edit to add: it appears like all of these offenders are not what you might consider violent criminals - note Tim Griffin, arrested for driving with a suspended license, above.

Message edited by author 2007-02-23 10:51:49.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

02/23/2007 10:53:40 AM · #119

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5