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02/22/2007 02:42:23 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by bigalpha:
Originally posted by Fromac:
The answer is in early educational intervention, vibrant social programs, and an end to poverty, racism and sexism.
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*bursts out laughing* *laughs a little more*
*picks up milk glass that got knocked over in my laughing*
Are you kidding me? None of that will make a damned lick of good. You have to end bigger things; like corrupt government, religion [not looking for a war here], money. Those are the real culprits.
Anyhow, if someone commits a crime, what would you propose doing to them? How can we punish someone for a crime without putting them in jail? That's the only place where you can really control their lives. You can't make someone not watch TV or not use the computer if they are not in prison. |
Obviously change can't happen over night. The programs would need to be in place for several generations before they'd start to make a measurable difference. |
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02/22/2007 02:44:26 PM · #77 |
And off to rant this thread goes...
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02/22/2007 02:53:41 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by Fromac:
Obviously change can't happen over night. The programs would need to be in place for several generations before they'd start to make a measurable difference. |
Sorry, didn't mean to be a meanie. Bad attempt at humor.
Anyhow, how would you propose rehabilitating people who've committed crimes? What about those people who have an education but commit crimes anyways? How about those people who commit crimes, but don't need rehab? How do you punish those people? Garnish their wages, put them on house-arrest?
As far as I can tell, putting people in prison is the most effect way to punish them. When they are in jail/prison, you can directly dictate what they can and cannot do.
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02/22/2007 03:02:56 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by bigalpha:
Originally posted by Fromac:
Obviously change can't happen over night. The programs would need to be in place for several generations before they'd start to make a measurable difference. |
Sorry, didn't mean to be a meanie. Bad attempt at humor.
Anyhow, how would you propose rehabilitating people who've committed crimes? What about those people who have an education but commit crimes anyways? How about those people who commit crimes, but don't need rehab? How do you punish those people? Garnish their wages, put them on house-arrest?
As far as I can tell, putting people in prison is the most effect way to punish them. When they are in jail/prison, you can directly dictate what they can and cannot do. |
57% of the prison population is in on drug offenses. Seems like a natural place to start with education. Practical job training would be helpful. High school degrees. How many prisoners do you think are educated?
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02/22/2007 03:11:22 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by bigalpha:
Originally posted by Fromac:
Obviously change can't happen over night. The programs would need to be in place for several generations before they'd start to make a measurable difference. |
Sorry, didn't mean to be a meanie. Bad attempt at humor.
Anyhow, how would you propose rehabilitating people who've committed crimes? What about those people who have an education but commit crimes anyways? How about those people who commit crimes, but don't need rehab? How do you punish those people? Garnish their wages, put them on house-arrest?
As far as I can tell, putting people in prison is the most effect way to punish them. When they are in jail/prison, you can directly dictate what they can and cannot do. |
57% of the prison population is in on drug offenses. Seems like a natural place to start with education. Practical job training would be helpful. High school degrees. How many prisoners do you think are educated? |
Gotta jump in on this one.
A lack of education is yet another symptom, I believe. It is a big ole ugly cycle. I work with high school drop outs daily, and have now for almost 10 years. Just because someone has a HS or college diploma does not guarantee they will not use drugs, have violent behavior, or commit a crime. That piece of paper is not the cure.
Students who drop out and do not get an education often have many other problems that lead to jail, etc.
Would elaborate more, but baby just woke up from their nap. ]
Back later.
Im back. The gist of what I am saying is that the same factors that are causing the criminal behavior are, in large part, the same factors that prevent them from getting an education. If a person has the perserverance to get their education, they probably already have the systems in place that they need to succeed in society.
The program I work for provides instruction for inmates to get their GED at a local jail. Judging from the number of repeat enrollees, sumtin ain't working. I don't think "rehabilitation" will work for all, but at the same time lock up doesn't seem to work either.
Message edited by author 2007-02-22 15:43:31. |
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02/22/2007 03:30:27 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
57% of the prison population is in on drug offenses. Seems like a natural place to start with education. Practical job training would be helpful. High school degrees. How many prisoners do you think are educated? |
I work at an outpatient drug-treatment program for people addicted to opiod drugs. Clients in our program have a very low crime rate -- probably lower than the general population.
It costs about $4,000/year for someone to be in our program; it costs about $40,000/year to keep someone in prison.
Yet, the proposal is always to build more prisons, not pay for treatment-on-demand for drug-users. For the cost of building a couple of jail cells you could fund our program for a year. Our governor wants to ship inmates out to privately-run out-of-state prisons.
Not only does putting people into treatment save big bucks up front compared to imprisoning them, it also reduces the impact on the community by eliminating the need for addicts to prostitute themselves or commit crimes to support their habit. Fewer burglaries in the area means your insurance rates should benefit. |
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02/22/2007 03:37:57 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Oh yeah and I never said incarcerated people should have to give up their human rights.
ETA: That must have been TheSaj LMAO j/k :-P |
Sorry - my comment was directed more generally to the "throw away the key" crowd (who persist in ignoring rational argument and instead shout about how important it is that criminality is met with nothing more than punishment).
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02/22/2007 04:03:22 PM · #83 |
But the question is: if someone commits a crime, and we use rehab to make sure they probably won't again, then where is the punishment?
Jail is a punishment. No TV is a punishment. No money is a punishment.
How do you propose to punish the offenders, and rehab them at the same time? What types of punishment fit which types of crimes? An eye for an eye?
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02/22/2007 04:58:19 PM · #84 |
A couple of things that maybe contradictory
I have read that science has identified a difference in the brain structure of sociopaths -vs- "normal" people. If that is true, how much education will help them? I have heard many people state the criminal mind works differently than "normal" minds. It's more reptilian. Reptilian Mind
When a person gets out of prison, educated, reformed, whatever - they still have few prospects for anything other than low level subsistence. Every job application I've ever filled out asks if you have ever been arrested, and for what. When someone is screening a hundred applications for a position, it doesn't take much to miss the initial cut. Criminal behavior is definitely one of those excluders. |
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02/22/2007 05:03:56 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by bigalpha:
But the question is: if someone commits a crime, and we use rehab to make sure they probably won't again, then where is the punishment?
Jail is a punishment. No TV is a punishment. No money is a punishment.
How do you propose to punish the offenders, and rehab them at the same time? What types of punishment fit which types of crimes? An eye for an eye? |
Why are you so bent on punishment? Isn't the ultimate goal to lower crime in the country? Sure there should be restitution for crimes commited, but to think that punishment somehow fixes something by itself seems to deny the obvious truth that it doesn't work.
I think there probably is a portion of criminals that are beyond help and should simply be removed from society. However, I think there is a large portion that is salvageable with reabilitation that makes sense.
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02/22/2007 05:05:42 PM · #86 |
Ohhh this is a fun topic.
Joe Arpaio for President!!
White collar criminals & petty crimes, etc - some form of punishment, civil retribution, work programs, etc in some form, to pay back society, and get a chance to learn from their mistakes and rehabilitate, etc.
Hardened criminals, 3-strike criminals, violent criminals, etc. - lock em up tight, make them work for their room & board and expenses. Don't want to do a day's work? No problem inmate 1234567, you don't get to eat today - we'll try again tomorrow.
What is a crime, is that prisoners get medical care, dental care and proper meals, whereas so many children and elderly in this country can't afford to get proper care and at times suffer because of it - that's messed-up!! Prisoners get cable TV, computer time, libraries, sports, exercise, newspapers, sex, hobbies, etc, all of which are privileges, not rights.
Sorry - I don't get it, never have.
Message edited by author 2007-02-22 17:08:50. |
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02/22/2007 05:11:35 PM · #87 |
well you need medical care to look after that broom handle your colon is now sporting.
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02/22/2007 05:14:14 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Brad:
Ohhh this is a fun topic.
Joe Arpaio for President!!
White collar criminals & petty crimes, etc - some form of punishment, civil retribution, work programs, etc in some form, to pay back society, and get a chance to learn from their mistakes and rehabilitate, etc.
Hardened criminals, 3-strike criminals, violent criminals, etc. - lock em up tight, make them work for their room & board and expenses. Don't want to do a day's work? No problem inmate 1234567, you don't get to eat today - we'll try again tomorrow.
What is a crime, is that prisoners get medical care, dental care and proper meals, whereas so many children and elderly in this country can't afford to get proper care and at times suffer because of it - that's messed-up!! Prisoners get cable TV, computer time, libraries, sports, exercise, newspapers, sex, hobbies, etc, all of which are privileges, not rights.
Sorry - I don't get it, never have. |
Prisoners get SEX?!?! Alright, I'm off to hold up a gas station... wait, on second thought I don't think I want the kind of sex the prisoners are getting ;) |
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02/22/2007 05:16:53 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by Gatorguy:
Originally posted by Brad:
Ohhh this is a fun topic.
Joe Arpaio for President!!
White collar criminals & petty crimes, etc - some form of punishment, civil retribution, work programs, etc in some form, to pay back society, and get a chance to learn from their mistakes and rehabilitate, etc.
Hardened criminals, 3-strike criminals, violent criminals, etc. - lock em up tight, make them work for their room & board and expenses. Don't want to do a day's work? No problem inmate 1234567, you don't get to eat today - we'll try again tomorrow.
What is a crime, is that prisoners get medical care, dental care and proper meals, whereas so many children and elderly in this country can't afford to get proper care and at times suffer because of it - that's messed-up!! Prisoners get cable TV, computer time, libraries, sports, exercise, newspapers, sex, hobbies, etc, all of which are privileges, not rights.
Sorry - I don't get it, never have. |
Prisoners get SEX?!?! Alright, I'm off to hold up a gas station... wait, on second thought I don't think I want the kind of sex the prisoners are getting ;) |
//www.mdoc.state.ms.us/conjugal_visits.htm |
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02/22/2007 05:20:22 PM · #90 |
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02/22/2007 05:22:15 PM · #91 |
Why does everyone make such a fuss about criminals? They take a chance get caught and face the consequences.
Do they have rights? Yeah, food and a bed, but they can work for that.
TV, Porn, etc, etc. No way!
Where are the crimes with no victims as stated earlier? Every crime has a victim.
I wish UK would get serious like the sheriff in US. There are too many do-gooder, liberal, limp wristed, PC people getting their snouts in the government trough. Let's treat criminals the way they deserve. |
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02/22/2007 05:24:27 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by formerlee:
with no victims as stated earlier? Every crime has a victim. |
I agree that we should be tough on crime but not every crime has a victim. Consensual activities should not be criminal as the only victim is the perpetrator. Legislating morality is a joke and can never really be done. |
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02/22/2007 05:59:40 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by formerlee:
with no victims as stated earlier? Every crime has a victim. |
I agree that we should be tough on crime but not every crime has a victim. Consensual activities should not be criminal as the only victim is the perpetrator. Legislating morality is a joke and can never really be done. |
What crime has no victim?? |
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02/22/2007 06:05:48 PM · #94 |
How about oral sex or sodomy between consenting adults or smoking pot. These are illegal in in Arizona. Do you think I should be thrown in jail for that?
Message edited by author 2007-02-22 18:06:01. |
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02/22/2007 06:06:48 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by formerlee:
What crime has no victim?? |
He's probably thinking of something like prostitution.
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02/22/2007 06:08:01 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by formerlee:
What crime has no victim?? |
He's probably thinking of something like prostitution. |
That too! |
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02/22/2007 06:22:37 PM · #97 |
Punishment for violent heinous crimes, yes. Rewarding their efforts, by giving them anything more then the basics, no way.
Money should also be spent to rehabilitate them in many different programs, even in tents, but not giving any basic luxories. Heck steal a car and get $80,000 worth of free College tuition, that may entice the average non-criminal to take advantage of such niceties.
Just one of my old humorous sayings: "Next thing you know, they'll demand *Cell* phones!" |
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02/22/2007 07:24:51 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
How about oral sex or sodomy between consenting adults or smoking pot. These are illegal in in Arizona. Do you think I should be thrown in jail for that? |
Remind me never to move to Arizona ;) LOL |
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02/22/2007 07:25:21 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by formerlee:
What crime has no victim?? |
He's probably thinking of something like prostitution. |
ahhhh but that is legal in Nevada :) |
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02/22/2007 07:49:33 PM · #100 |
Maybe they will just learn to go commit their crime in another county :oP
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