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01/25/2007 05:21:29 AM · #1
Challenge entry's on the web before they're submitted.

I'm fairly new here, and more of a visitor than a participant of DPC, but i would like to discuss something:

I'm watching this site for about six months now, and i've noticed that some members are posting there challenge submissions on other sites on the web, this prior to submitting them here. Mostly done to make a more conscious selection trough other opinions. I believe this is not a rules violation but it's not very ethical (me thinks). But lately i see another form of: linking photo's to challenge members. I noticed some forum posts prior to a challenge and the same day a saw the matching photo. The person in question spoiled already the title which the entry is going to have. This title is a direct link with some forum posts here on DPC. So when the entry is cleared for voting most of you will know which person has made that entry! Feels wrong to me?

Maybe a making to much of to little, and it's just the way this site works. But give it some thoughts.

01/25/2007 05:25:46 AM · #2
If you have specific instances, and it sounds as if you do, send a ticket to the Site Council (Contact Us page). They will investigate and take appropriate action.

Public discussion of this is pointless without the specifics; and with the specifics it would violate forum rules by singling out individuals.

Best to just contact the SC.

David
01/25/2007 05:32:30 AM · #3
Yes i've specifics...but i don't know if this a rules violation, because this is not mentioned in the stated rules.

Furthermore, i don't wanna be a snitch. I believe if it's ethical? than nothing to worry.. if it's not ethical than the person(s) in question should make a change.

That's the reason for asking a discussion, is it actually a rules violation?
01/25/2007 05:59:20 AM · #4
It isn't really all that much of a reach to know that's unethical and slimy behavior. If it troubles you, and I sense that it does, reporting it to Site Council doesn't make you a snitch, it means you care and have an interest in holding people accountable and don't really want to cosign the bad behavior.

It's not a popular thing to do from the standpoint of the offender, but he/she knows better.

It certainly is not in the spirit of how this site works to troll for opinions on an entry before submitting, and I for one would have no qualms about notifying SC if I turned up that kind of antics.
01/25/2007 06:01:41 AM · #5
The challenge rules state specifically no discussion of images currently in voting is allowed, but not a discussion made previous to the voting. The forum rules state no discussion of a challenge entry may be made before voting is over -- a slight but important difference in wording.

Vote tampering is taken very seriously here. Any attempt to alter vote totals at all (in any way) is against the challenge rules. But, what is an attempt to alter vote totals and what is not is entirely up to the SC. It's a judgement call only they (collectively) can make -- but they can't make the decision at all without being made aware of it.

As far as being a 'snitch' goes, any community requires a certain amount of watching out for each other. Reporting your concern is in the best interest of the community. If the situation is judged to be a problem, the SC will deal with it with actions they feel are apropriate. But no one outside the SC will know who initiated the investigation regardless of the outcome of it. How it came to the attention of the SC is not important, only that they have a chance to look it over.

I could tell you how I feel about it, but as I said earlier, I feel any discussion without the specifics is pointless -- I would just be making decisions based on your narrative, not the specifics. However, anything that is against the spirit of the rules is not allowed -- and the anonymous entry and voting system that is in place is right up there near the top in importance to the spirit of the rules.

David

Message edited by author 2007-01-25 06:02:48.
01/25/2007 06:19:46 AM · #6
The problem is that i don't participate in challenges, i don't wan't to be a troll either. I'm only here for recreation when i'm not working..and view those good, the bad and the ugly pics. Therefore i make another approach..i contact the person(s) directly to be aware of her/his actions. I wan't the opinion of the violator her/him self?
01/25/2007 07:04:34 AM · #7
To be honest mate, if you have evidence but don't want to "snitch" to the site council, then send me a PM with the details and I'll do it for you. I have no problem with "snitching" whatsoever. I think it's much better to let the proper people deal with it, or not, and then due process has been followed, yes?
01/25/2007 07:29:25 AM · #8
this has been a source of on-going debate, and there are a number of sides that must be considered.

from an administrative standpoint, there are so many scenarios that writing a reasonable, enforceable set of rules would take a considerable effort. and, once put into place, it would be extremely hard to police.

which brings up the next point: it would take significant overhead to determine, on a case-by-case basis, whether an image found somewhere else was simply out there for people to enjoy, or if the image was out there in an effort to sway voting. one thing that is hard for some to accept is that not all dpc members shoot just for dpc. is it really fair and reasonable to try to limit what people do outside of dpc?

this is not a simple issue, and it is one worth talking about.

---------------------------------------------------------------
on the other hand...

if you have clear cut evidence that someone has posted an image in a blog or another forum, and they are actively soliciting advice or votes, then, by all means, REPORT IT TO THE SC.

it is one thing to simply not be able to hold back the urge to share for a couple weeks, it's another thing completely different to actively try to up your score.

Message edited by author 2007-01-25 07:33:12.
01/25/2007 08:09:59 AM · #9
Originally posted by skiprow:

...it would take significant overhead to determine, on a case-by-case basis, whether an image found somewhere else was simply out there for people to enjoy, or if the image was out there in an effort to sway voting. one thing that is hard for some to accept is that not all dpc members shoot just for dpc. is it really fair and reasonable to try to limit what people do outside of dpc?...

it is one thing to simply not be able to hold back the urge to share for a couple weeks, it's another thing completely different to actively try to up your score.


One area where something like this could occur is the multiple PAD/PAW projects that several of our members are hosting on various blog sites. Say you take your shot for the day and post it on your own personal site, and later decide to enter it into a challenge. Yes, the photo has been published and maybe even commented on by other DPC members. I've seen challenge entries appear here that were previously posted on someone's personal site.

I don't have a problem with it.

Anonymity is not a strict rule, it's a matter of site etiquette. There is a difference between vote swaying -- and merely conducting personal photography projects and posting shots on the Internet.

Frankly, the identification of an image as belonging to a specific user can be accomplished in a number of other ways. The one that comes to mind instantly is recognition of models ( ie. 30 Day SP projects, that run right here on the site) and also people's children/spouse, etc.

If a member or user has suspicion of vote swaying, I heartily encourage reporting it to the SC for investigation. With that said, I don't believe the mere posting of an image somewhere else on the Internet, receiving feedback, and subsequently entering it into a challenge is any real cause for concern. Posting a shot here in the forums is a more of a matter of concern, but again, there's a fine line between sharing an image with others and actively seeking to inflate it's challenge score.


01/25/2007 08:19:36 AM · #10
One of the most ribboned members here posts his images on another website for discussion before the challenge. I don't see a problem with it. It would be the same thing as showing your image to your friends and family to get their opinion before you decide to submit it. Does it help him pick out the winners? Perhaps. But I don't think that getting someone else's opinion before submitting is against the rules (or if it was, I don't think it would be enforceable). And doing it on the internet doesn't seem to make it any different, just a bigger audience is all.

I'm okay with it.

01/25/2007 08:40:42 AM · #11
Is the photo in question in the "Best of 2006" challenge? There are TONS of photos in there (mine included) which have been posted on other sites and even on this site in the forums. I think the general consesus about that particular challenge is that photos which have been previously posted (but not in another challenge) are fair game, it is up to the voter's honesty to decide if they can give it an unbiased vote or skip over it if they can't.

I sometimes see photos in current challenges on other sites like Betterphoto and others, and frankly I don't mind. If somebody has a great shot, it shouldn't be exclusive only to DPC and should be shared for the world to see. BUT, if somebody is posting a direct link to a photo that they have in a current challenge to try to gain "popularity votes", then that is wrong and should be reported.
01/25/2007 08:53:12 AM · #12
Originally posted by dwterry:

One of the most ribboned members here posts his images on another website for discussion before the challenge. I don't see a problem with it. It would be the same thing as showing your image to your friends and family to get their opinion before you decide to submit it. Does it help him pick out the winners? Perhaps. But I don't think that getting someone else's opinion before submitting is against the rules (or if it was, I don't think it would be enforceable). And doing it on the internet doesn't seem to make it any different, just a bigger audience is all.

I'm okay with it.


Well, it's is just *my* opinion....that and fifty cents.....8>)

But it has to do with that perception of impropriety thing and how you deal with your conscience. If I like a pic well enough to submit it, I'm really not looking for anyone else to make that decision for me so the point of putting it out there to me just seems like a "Hey, this is*MY* entry, vote it up.".

I really don't buy that it is in any way satisfying some other purpose.

I may be wrong, but why not wait if you're going to enter it in a challenge, it's only a week?

And....with the exception of a very rare challenge such as a "Best Of", it's all but impossible to have a pic hosted out on the Web *BEFORE* the challenge starts because of the dating, so I just don't buy any innocence there.

My point is, why bother?

If you win and you had it out there, I sure wouldn't see it as a clean victory, so here agin, what would there be to gain?

Ultimately, it's up to SC to decide, but if it's an issue to you, then you should definitely raise it with them rather than the offending party.

It would be hard to approach anyone about something like this without it seeming adversarial because I'm quite sure that whomever is doing it knows it's not really a kosher thing to do.....regardless of whether or not they do it regularly.

It is potentially an advantage, and has been pointed out to me on numerous occasions, that spirit of fairnes and understanding is part of the relationship that we have on a regular basis......it's nice to have all of us be considerate and amenable to one another's feelings.

So.....if you don't want to snitch, don't, but then let it go, if you want to hold the person accountable to the rules we all abide by, let SC know and let them make the decision, or just enter the winning photograph and the Hell with all of it!......8>)

Message edited by author 2007-01-25 08:55:41.
01/25/2007 08:53:24 AM · #13
Originally posted by Telehubbie:

Is the photo in question in the "Best of 2006" challenge? There are TONS of photos in there (mine included) which have been posted on other sites and even on this site in the forums. I think the general consesus about that particular challenge is that photos which have been previously posted (but not in another challenge) are fair game, it is up to the voter's honesty to decide if they can give it an unbiased vote or skip over it if they can't.

I sometimes see photos in current challenges on other sites like Betterphoto and others, and frankly I don't mind. If somebody has a great shot, it shouldn't be exclusive only to DPC and should be shared for the world to see. BUT, if somebody is posting a direct link to a photo that they have in a current challenge to try to gain "popularity votes", then that is wrong and should be reported.


This is exactly how I see it also...
01/25/2007 08:55:45 AM · #14
I have been curious about this since I started a PAD. When I did some shots pecifically for the Battle Of The Sexes challenge I didn't put any on the PAD till after voting was finished. That seemed fair. But it's more of a problem with landscapes etc where someone might recognise the location, and for the Free Study where I might want to pull out a picture from a couple of weeks back. But even after only 6 months on DPC there are places, people, plants even styles that I can recognise as being the work of a particular photographer.
01/25/2007 09:01:22 AM · #15
Originally posted by Telehubbie:

I sometimes see photos in current challenges on other sites like Betterphoto and others, and frankly I don't mind. If somebody has a great shot, it shouldn't be exclusive only to DPC and should be shared for the world to see.


Yeah, but why not wait a week if you're going to enter it in a challenge?

Hey, we ain't winning national awards for big cash and nobody even remembers what challenge was for the second week in December any more, but just out of decency and fair play, IMO.....why not just wait?

As much pedantic discussion as ends up in these forums, you've gotta know that this kind of behavior *IS* going to bother someone, and they're going to complain. Why be another of the silly issues that SC has to arbitrate?
01/25/2007 09:04:13 AM · #16
Originally posted by thelobster:

I have been curious about this since I started a PAD. When I did some shots pecifically for the Battle Of The Sexes challenge I didn't put any on the PAD till after voting was finished. That seemed fair. But it's more of a problem with landscapes etc where someone might recognise the location, and for the Free Study where I might want to pull out a picture from a couple of weeks back. But even after only 6 months on DPC there are places, people, plants even styles that I can recognise as being the work of a particular photographer.


You mean like Auroras in Iceland?

Or scantily clad redheads in Oz?

Or grunge in Toronto?

Sure, we all know this is a part of DPC, but even though styles often spell out the entry, it's different than publishing it on the web with all the info.
01/25/2007 09:06:36 AM · #17
i think it is only an issue if the image is a flaunt of the rules
I.E. up on another site prior to the challenge which would make it a DQ

(my best of 2006 was posted in the forums / now hidden .. and have done that for a few best of Months .. i think it's a non issue)
01/25/2007 09:10:36 AM · #18
Can somebody supply me with a list of all the websites I should be monitoring in order that I can vote down any photos I think I may have seen before? After all, DPC is the boss of the Internet, right?

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/35357/thumb/213771.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/35357/thumb/213771.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
01/25/2007 09:11:28 AM · #19
there is no rule against using your image on other sites or in your while the challenge is on, or in the voting stage. however, there are 2 things that we do look for.

1) if an image is posted solely for the purposes of saying "hey this is my image here if you love it give it a 10 at dpc," then that is vote solicitation/manipulation and IS against the rules and IS taken very seriously.

2) if you see an image in a challenge posted somewhere else PRIOR to the start of the challenge (i.e. if you see an image in the "motion panning" challenge posted with a date of 12/11/05 on another site), please let us know by using the contact page.

otherwise, please continue to participate and assume your fellow members have good intentions.
01/25/2007 09:11:50 AM · #20
Originally posted by Strikeslip:

After all, DPC is the boss of the Internet, right?


no. just the boss of YOU.
01/25/2007 09:14:36 AM · #21
This is a hypothetical question.

What if today I upload a photograph to my DPC portfolio, post it in the forums and ask "what do you think?" without reference to any challenges.

Tomorrow, after reading reactions, I delete the photograph from my portfolio and enter this into the shallow depth of field challenge.

There appears to be nothing in the rules that prevents this.

01/25/2007 09:19:20 AM · #22
I knew i should see and wait what you guys and girls are coming up with: That's why i wanted a discussion!

Let's say this is "actually" the case:

1: The soon be submitted challenge photo is on another pure photograpic forum asking for indepth critique.

2: The DPC "current challenge" forum post prior to the cahllenge is similar to this (is not actually posted, just for the argument): Man taking this picture i saw someone hit by a car. The title of this persons entry: Hit by Car.

Look it's fine by me if this is not a problem for the DPC rules written or unwritten..

As i mentioned i'm only a observer, don't kill me for taking on this topic.
01/25/2007 09:26:24 AM · #23
Originally posted by quiet_observation:

This is a hypothetical question.

What if today I upload a photograph to my DPC portfolio, post it in the forums and ask "what do you think?" without reference to any challenges.

Tomorrow, after reading reactions, I delete the photograph from my portfolio and enter this into the shallow depth of field challenge.

There appears to be nothing in the rules that prevents this.


I think the consensus in the past has been that this isn't against the rules but is very bad form.

I often post challenge entries in my blogs, on Flickr, etc., but I'm careful not to mention DPC in the same post. There are DPC folks who visit those blogs, and for that I have a disclaimer about that which threatens them within an inch of their lives if I ever find out they or anyone else are voting me up and actually asking them to refrain from voting on images they recognize. I've never had a problem.
01/25/2007 09:26:55 AM · #24
Originally posted by quiet_observation:

This is a hypothetical question.

What if today I upload a photograph to my DPC portfolio, post it in the forums and ask "what do you think?" without reference to any challenges.

Tomorrow, after reading reactions, I delete the photograph from my portfolio and enter this into the shallow depth of field challenge.

There appears to be nothing in the rules that prevents this.


That would not go over very well, IMO, especially with the ones that gave you feedback and then saw the same image in the challenge.

Message edited by author 2007-01-25 09:27:06.
01/25/2007 09:27:58 AM · #25
Originally posted by quiet_observation:

This is a hypothetical question.

What if today I upload a photograph to my DPC portfolio, post it in the forums and ask "what do you think?" without reference to any challenges.

Tomorrow, after reading reactions, I delete the photograph from my portfolio and enter this into the shallow depth of field challenge.

There appears to be nothing in the rules that prevents this.


There isn't. The question comes up occasionally. What we usually tell folks is that it's OK, as long as they mark the portfolio shot "hidden" during voting, and that they are aware that some voters that recognize the shot may vote lower if they feel anonymity is breached.
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