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10/30/2003 10:16:10 AM · #26
I think your photos are stunning! I have admired your work for some time.

I hope you just take a break, kick back and let it roll off -- and then come back and kick some butt!

Without you, this site will only deterioriate. We need some great photos to look at...

Best,
Renee
10/30/2003 10:19:03 AM · #27
Originally posted by vonautsch:

Originally posted by pitsaman:

I mean we don't let all 50 contestants from USA states to go to the Miss World contest!


Why not? Surely you wouldn't turn down the other 49 beautiful women?

Because when Miss Venezuela will pass by most of them will look like froggys
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10/30/2003 10:22:02 AM · #28
Originally posted by vonautsch:

Just a little different thinking here...

If 1 is bad and 10 is good, then 5 would be average. Perhaps the overall average is getting better, which would mean that a photo which received a 7 last year (because it was above average) is now an average photo, meaning a 5. The overall lowering of scores may just mean that everyone has gotten better.


This makes absolutly no sense at all! Better photos so lower scores??? What? You would think it would be the opposite, right? If you look at the pictures from last year and then the ones from this year why should they be lower? I just don't get it.
10/30/2003 10:28:11 AM · #29
It makes sense if people are (perhaps subconsciously) ranking the photos relative to one another instead of each independently on an absolute scale.

A photo which a year ago may have stood out as a submission may now seem "average" for this particular batch.

BTW: Technically, since there is no zero score, the average (mean) score on this scale would be 5.5.

Message edited by author 2003-10-30 10:28:35.
10/30/2003 10:31:28 AM · #30
Originally posted by Sonifo:

This makes absolutly no sense at all! Better photos so lower scores??? What? You would think it would be the opposite, right? If you look at the pictures from last year and then the ones from this year why should they be lower? I just don't get it.


The scores would get lower because the overall average photo is getting better. What was considered average last year (5) may be below average this year (3), and what was considered outstanding last year (10), may just be better than average this year (7). The quality of photo didn't get worse, the standards are just being raised because photographers are getting better. Understand yet?
10/30/2003 10:32:28 AM · #31
Originally posted by GeneralE:

BTW: Technically, since there is no zero score, the average (mean) score on this scale would be 5.5.


hehe...you got me on that one!
10/30/2003 11:16:49 AM · #32
Well, it is very true that only certain kinds of photos score very high in the challenges. As challenges get more and more entries (meaning that the site is growing), folks will spend less and less time in evaluating shots, methinks (as if 2 seconds can get any shorter!).

If Nasti has had enough of this kind of challenge, I don't blame her for wanting to go try new things. But I hope she does understand that she is a fantastic photographer from whom I have learned A LOT!

Kiwi, maybe you can convince her to just take a hiatus or submit once in a while rather than just flat out leave. Meanwhile, I think I'm going to start a new forum thread.
10/30/2003 11:39:18 AM · #33
Originally posted by Anastasia:

I am glad I met so many wonderful people on DPC, great photographers, kind and caring.
One can learn a lot in here, get motivation, inspiration.
For me the reason I got into DPC was CHALLANGE to become better, te get critique and improove with the help of it.
BUT what do I see now? Wonderful photos are beeing scored so low, sorry to say...but there is so much RUBBISH in here now which has got nothing to do with CHALLANGE for me.
I don`t want to sound rude at all, I am just dissappointed and I think my last Grace submission is really gonna be my last.




(((hug))) i understand your feelings, hon...i'm feeling it, too.

take a break if you feel you should, but, know that there are a lot of people here that think your photos are amazing...myself included.

love you much, hon (love you much, too, kiwi)
sher
10/30/2003 11:47:49 AM · #34
if you're goin to quit....i'll do it too.
10/30/2003 12:51:18 PM · #35
Ok, if there was a filter to weed out the "crap" than how would those photographers ever learn anything, which is the point of being here.
10/30/2003 12:56:26 PM · #36
Originally posted by hbunch7187:

Ok, if there was a filter to weed out the "crap" than how would those photographers ever learn anything, which is the point of being here.


I'll second that one. I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment. I had started a post a while back that was prompted by a different series of discussions, but I think it might apply here, too: Outgrowing the Site?
10/30/2003 12:57:41 PM · #37
Originally posted by hbunch7187:

Ok, if there was a filter to weed out the "crap" than how would those photographers ever learn anything, which is the point of being here.
People who want to learn will try better in that case instead of submitting jokes (completely white,black or blurry dog photos!,c'mon,just take look at Grace Challenge,there are several photos people put just to be there knowingly about the low quality!
10/30/2003 01:09:45 PM · #38
Originally posted by alansfreed:

[quote=hbunch7187]Ok, if there was a filter to weed out the "crap" than how would those photographers ever learn anything, which is the point of being here.


I'll just be an example! Anastasia Love your pictures and your site!
I'm a newbie only entered in 4 challenges past 4 weeks, if you go I wont have any one to learn from.
10/30/2003 01:18:32 PM · #39
I don't think anybody will enjoy submitting jokes for more than once or twice. There are obviously photographers in DPC who are inexperienced or without good cameras, who may have produced things which are labelled as crap, but have no idea why or how to improve. I think the point is to learn from people and allowing people to learn from us by being constructive. Some good photos may be rated low, but it is just a number really (I mean if the best photo scores a 7, than 5 can be considered very good). The more important thing is to understand why some photos are rated higher than the others, that what is the X-factor. (sorry for my tone cause I am new to this site, that it may not be appropriate for me to make such comments)
10/30/2003 01:19:08 PM · #40
Originally posted by Anastasia:

.
BUT what do I see now? Wonderful photos are beeing scored so low, sorry to say...but there is so much RUBBISH in here now which has got nothing to do with CHALLANGE for me.



Hell yes. Isn’t it frustrating and disappointing some times?
I believe DPC is still one of the greatest place for beginners of all levels. Lots of pictures of interest from all over to look at and learn from, the possibility to critique, which is a far more efficient way to learn about your own errors than being critiqued, I think. Not to forget the challenge aspect of things than can be quite exciting. And it is mostly fun.
Those who have been around for a while and have had their share of success and/or have seen their standards in photo creation and appreciation evolve and mature, probably need a new playground.
I was really glad when the member section was created last year. I really felt a difference, a smaller crowd that was generally more open to different forms of photography. Felt right at home with this group who awarded me 13 of my 14 ribbons :) The 25$ tag seems now to be the only differentiation factor between the two groups.
Not that I really disapprove of the growing production of centennial clichés, advertising gimmicks and emotionally deserted full color images, but I don’t find them exiting in any way anymore and, like some others on this site, find it a little distressing when they are elevated to the status of top aesthetical paradigms. And of course I would also prefer finding the creative picture I had admired in the top 20 and not way back there in the rankings, sandwiched between a Crayola ad and a blurry Labrador.

Now lets dream a little:
I would go for a “free edit B&W” Challenge group. Why B&W? I think it would help keep us more focused on the essentials: composition and emotion. It would also mostly distract us from all temptations such as fiery sunsets, yellow, bug-infested daisies, gigabytes of fall foliages reflected on quiet waters etc. Could help us finding other ways to surprise each other. You never know…
Free edit? Anybody serious about digital photography and creation should experiment with these new tools. Why artificially impose the limitation of a fading technology to an emerging one.
10/30/2003 01:24:09 PM · #41
Yay to free edit B/W!

Message edited by author 2003-10-30 13:24:27.
10/30/2003 01:26:42 PM · #42
I know this belongs in Web Site Suggestions, butit seems that there is a problem being described here and I would like to offer a suggestion. Today we have..
Average vote:
Average Vote per Commenters:
Average Vote per Users w/ Cameras:
Average Vote per Users w/out Cameras:

Why not add an average vote of Judges, Critique Club or DPC Review Board so we have another perspective on scores. The site can select a team of people that have demonstated the ability to score in an objective and fair manner. Photographers are not always the best judges, so the choice would be based on judging / critiqueing skill rather than photographic skill. If the Critique Club is still in place (I volunteered and never heard anything), maybe that flag in a user's profile would be enough to calculate this new perspective on votes.

Anyway... I hate to see anybody leave. There is a lot of quality work going on here and the potential for photographic growth is enormous. I think there are just a few growing pains that we need to work through.
10/30/2003 01:31:13 PM · #43
Originally posted by hbunch7187:

Ok, if there was a filter to weed out the "crap" than how would those photographers ever learn anything, which is the point of being here.


Edit: I assumed "crap" to be bad votes, not bad photos.

I don't think you filter out the crap, because even the crap has value. But I do think you can filter your inputs and evaluate each segment for it's merits. My wife's opinion of a photograph and an art teacher's assement may be completely different. They both have value, but I would want to understand the source of each input so I can put it in context.

Message edited by author 2003-10-30 13:36:57.
10/30/2003 02:38:57 PM · #44
DPC, where all the photos are above average ...

--with apologies to Garrison Kiellor
10/30/2003 03:08:30 PM · #45
Originally posted by jjbeguin:

Originally posted by Anastasia:

.
BUT what do I see now? Wonderful photos are beeing scored so low, sorry to say...but there is so much RUBBISH in here now which has got nothing to do with CHALLANGE for me.

Free edit? Anybody serious about digital photography and creation should experiment with these new tools. Why artificially impose the limitation of a fading technology to an emerging one.


Excellent idea, JJ! I wonder how Drew and Langdon will feel about this idea?
10/30/2003 03:12:30 PM · #46
I find myself disappointed in dpc on occasion too and I only recently signed up. I was pleased when I found this website because it offered a number of things I felt I couldn't get elsewhere with the same quality. Those things are what made me into a paying member.

But every so often I see threads that 'seem' to be complaining about certain groups of photos, ones that don't meet a high standard and somehow degrade the site & challenges, aka "Rubbish".

I am sure my photos fall into this description, so I have an investment in the impact of such discussions. It distresses me that because I am still learning and want to submit my best yet comparatively 'rubbish-like' photos, it is somehow ruining it for everyone else.

One idea was to have all the 'crap' filtered out of the challenges from the start. Would those crap photographers be given a reason or critique on what needed improvement for next time? Or just a general "You suck." in the mail? Why bother coming to the site if you can't partake in ALL of the perks offered.. or maybe that's the point?

Maybe its thought because I (for example) can't get the quality I'm shooting for with my images yet, I can't see what makes a good photograph. I don't know..

I am sorry that my lack of expertise apparently makes those better than me look bad though - I truly always believed it did the opposite.
10/30/2003 03:16:42 PM · #47
Originally posted by GeneralE:

DPC, where all the photos are above average ...

--with apologies to Garrison Kiellor



But are they pure?
10/30/2003 03:23:39 PM · #48
Going back to my convergence towards average theory, I've tallied up all the high, mid and low scores from all of the challenges, put them to a graph, and added trendlines to each of the 3.

Here is the graph.

As can be seen, the high and low scores are converging towards the mid scores, which are not changing. In case anyone is interested, to date the average high score is 7.428, the average mid-score is 5.316 and the average low score is 3.127.
10/30/2003 03:26:13 PM · #49
wow that is so interesting!

de-sensitization at work?

Originally posted by vonautsch:

Going back to my convergence towards average theory, I've tallied up all the high, mid and low scores from all of the challenges, put them to a graph, and added trendlines to each of the 3.

Here is the graph.

As can be seen, the high and low scores are converging towards the mid scores, which are not changing. In case anyone is interested, to date the average high score is 7.428, the average mid-score is 5.316 and the average low score is 3.127.

10/30/2003 04:05:47 PM · #50
WOW! Thank you everyone for those kind words, I knew there are lots of great people here! I think I over-reacted this morning a bit, I was really dissappointed after seeing the photos in the current challenges and looking through some of the past ones too. I won't say anything about any particular photos to stay fair.
As far as I understand,it is not only my opinion that something has to be done about DPC, and of course I see at the same time that beginners have to learn too, but what about those guys who have been here for a long time and improved a lot - who just need more challenge. Just give them more space and a chance to show what they really can do. The idea JJ came up with is great! I am fully for it!
I still have to learn heaps and working for a professional photographer now I see that there is a lot to be learnt! All those people still show me that they learn every single day and there is no end to the learning and gathering experience.
Of course I will still be active on DPC, just need a break from the challenges, only if a product photography challenge comes again I will submit one of my everyday photos :-) LOL! A break will do me good I think.
Looking forward to seeing good changes over here....
with love to all my friends...........Anastasia
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