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DPChallenge Forums >> Individual Photograph Discussion >> Is this ethical? Do you agree or disagree?
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12/26/2006 11:56:17 PM · #1
Any serious photographer knows Jill Greenberg. She's the famous photographer for the Los Angeles Times and shoots for her major clients such as TV Guide, Proctor & Gamble, Kraft Foods, Sony, Disney, Anheuser Busch, Pepsi, Coca-Cola...the list goes on.

Also, you may have heard about her controversial series of photographs called, "End Times".

The photo below shows a young girl who was at one moment happily sucking on a lollipop, then another moment the lollipop was snatched away. Apparently, she did similar actions with other children for the "End Times" series. The full series is available from her "Manipulator" web portfolio.

So, do you agree or disagree with her means of photography as it relates to this series? Thoughts? Comments?

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12/26/2006 11:57:15 PM · #2
I personally don't like it at all.
12/26/2006 11:57:48 PM · #3
There were a couple previous threads on this subject. Probably should add to one of those instead of starting a new one.



Message edited by author 2006-12-27 00:06:24.
12/26/2006 11:59:08 PM · #4
I think the name of her portfolio,"Manipulator" says it all.
12/27/2006 12:06:37 AM · #5
I think her work is fantastic and very powerful.

Previous Thread is here.

Some people think it's cruel, but to me, it's no different then when your kid says in a store, "Mommy, can I look at the toy aisle?" and you say, Sure, honey." Then 10 minutes later you're telling them, "No, I told you could look, but we're not buying anything today." and you drag your kid off kicking and screaming. Does that make you a horrible person for teasing your kid with toys?


12/27/2006 12:21:14 AM · #6
Originally posted by ButterflySis:

I think her work is fantastic and very powerful.

Previous Thread is here.

Some people think it's cruel, but to me, it's no different then when your kid says in a store, "Mommy, can I look at the toy aisle?" and you say, Sure, honey." Then 10 minutes later you're telling them, "No, I told you could look, but we're not buying anything today." and you drag your kid off kicking and screaming. Does that make you a horrible person for teasing your kid with toys?

I don't know about you, but I don't send the kid into the toy isle with the intention of making them scream.

There is a significant difference!

David
12/27/2006 12:24:16 AM · #7
ethical or not aside, I think crying kids don't appeal to me at all.
12/27/2006 12:31:56 AM · #8
There's a podcast interview with her on iTunes, in the American Photo podcast stream.

Search for 'american photo' in the iTunes store, she talks for a while about the 10 minute photo shoots she does.

Message edited by author 2006-12-27 00:33:08.
12/27/2006 12:35:10 AM · #9
It brings on emotion...both from the child and the viewer...it might be harsh but it definitely gets what she is aiming for. I don't think any long term damage has been done to those kids...I bet they got a case load of suckers after that...and there were happy once again.
12/27/2006 12:42:52 AM · #10
Originally posted by TomFoolery:

It brings on emotion...both from the child and the viewer...it might be harsh but it definitely gets what she is aiming for. I don't think any long term damage has been done to those kids...I bet they got a case load of suckers after that...and there were happy once again.


This spawned a side thought - does that count as faked/staged photos?
I mean, will a staged pains-of-war photo with soldiers hurt in staged "battle" be the same as the real thing? hmm
12/27/2006 12:47:27 AM · #11
Is it saying they are hurt? And if so how are they hurt? Because if you had asked them if they were while they were crying I bet they all would say they were very hurt...but I can see where you are going with your question...and if it is journalistic it should be as fact based as possible...these shots would not fall into that category so yes they still work.
12/27/2006 01:02:50 AM · #12
while I don't agree with her methods, I think her work is fantastic. Maybe she could focus on making the kids happy instead of sending them into wild histercs.
12/27/2006 01:32:01 AM · #13
Originally posted by Blue Moon:

while I don't agree with her methods, I think her work is fantastic. Maybe she could focus on making the kids happy instead of sending them into wild histercs.


I doubt happy kids would have quite the political message she was reaching for with these images though.
12/27/2006 01:40:37 AM · #14
teasing babies is so 1980.....tossing babies is hip

I got some great shots today throwing my 4 year old over a sand dune (with pads of course)
12/27/2006 04:19:51 PM · #15
I truly hope you're kidding.

I just want to know how she got them to look like they're made out of plastic like that. I think that's cool.
12/28/2006 08:53:07 PM · #16
Originally posted by David.C:

Originally posted by ButterflySis:

I think her work is fantastic and very powerful.

Previous Thread is here.

Some people think it's cruel, but to me, it's no different then when your kid says in a store, "Mommy, can I look at the toy aisle?" and you say, Sure, honey." Then 10 minutes later you're telling them, "No, I told you could look, but we're not buying anything today." and you drag your kid off kicking and screaming. Does that make you a horrible person for teasing your kid with toys?


I don't know about you, but I don't send the kid into the toy isle with the intention of making them scream.

There is a significant difference!

David


I can't think of many (any?) kids around that age that are perfectly fine spending time in the toy aisle, playing with the toys, and then having to leave with nothing. They are almost always upset because they want to take it home. I know I was!

Originally posted by TomFoolery:

It brings on emotion...both from the child and the viewer...it might be harsh but it definitely gets what she is aiming for. I don't think any long term damage has been done to those kids...I bet they got a case load of suckers after that...and there were happy once again.


Exactly! If a few minutes of crying over a lollipop screw them up for life, it sounds as if they were doomed from the beginning anyway.


12/28/2006 09:03:30 PM · #17
Why is the little girl topless? Does she do kiddie porn too? Such a bitch.
12/28/2006 09:25:14 PM · #18
Originally posted by David Ey:

Why is the little girl topless? Does she do kiddie porn too? Such a bitch.

Ah yes. The accusation to end all arguments. Kind of like Godwin's Rule.
12/28/2006 09:33:58 PM · #19
This is unethical, in my opinion. The anguish these children feel about losing a lollipop is just as painful to them as losing something dear to an older person. The worst part is that the children have no way to give consent. Overall, the whole thing seems plain wrong.
12/28/2006 09:41:47 PM · #20
I see Gwen Stefani is crying on the front page there. Wonder if they took a lollipop away from her or just told her how big a sell out she is. :D
12/28/2006 09:44:14 PM · #21
Maybe we could burn her village and take photos of her anguish :-)
12/28/2006 09:48:36 PM · #22
Originally posted by MeGoobie:

This is unethical, in my opinion. The anguish these children feel about losing a lollipop is just as painful to them as losing something dear to an older person. The worst part is that the children have no way to give consent. Overall, the whole thing seems plain wrong.


Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. I don't remember a single instance in my childhood life where I felt sadness over losing a lollipop or any other toy for that matter. I do however know what it feels like to have all my camera equipment stolen and that feeling lasted for quite a bit. Ask a child what lollipop they lost a week ago(or a month for that matter) and i doubt they would remember what you were talking about.
12/28/2006 09:52:37 PM · #23
Originally posted by trnqlty:

Originally posted by MeGoobie:

This is unethical, in my opinion. The anguish these children feel about losing a lollipop is just as painful to them as losing something dear to an older person. The worst part is that the children have no way to give consent. Overall, the whole thing seems plain wrong.


Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. I don't remember a single instance in my childhood life where I felt sadness over losing a lollipop or any other toy for that matter. I do however know what it feels like to have all my camera equipment stolen and that feeling lasted for quite a bit. Ask a child what lollipop they lost a week ago(or a month for that matter) and i doubt they would remember what you were talking about.


You are right in that children don't have a sense of permanence as do adults. That same child is likely smiling 5 minutes later. Personally, this isn't something I would do for the sake of art, but I seriously doubt it is causing permanent distress to the children involved.
12/28/2006 09:54:03 PM · #24
photos get a reaction, great and creative lighting, and a character building exercise for the kids.

I don't think it's unethical. I'm not the biggest fan of the photos but I kinda dig em.
12/28/2006 10:17:56 PM · #25
While hardly related, just before the millennium change, there was an artist with a web site with the theme 1000 by 2000 in that he/she would have 2000 photos of children posted to a web....anyone familiar? I thought the theme was catchy.
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