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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> If it's the photographer, why do SLRs usually win?
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 12/16/2006 11:18:00 AM · #1
Just to start a useless argument on a boring Saturday morning ...

We keep hearing "it's the photographer, not the camera" so why is it so hard for point-and-shoots to crack the top ranks? No need to point out the exceptions - they're still exceptions.

I'm guessing it's still the photographer, but that the more experienced ones eventually buy SLRs. I'm certainly keeping a list of why I want one (not to win on DPC, but for things like better low-light performance).

What do YOU think?
 12/16/2006 11:23:54 AM · #2
I think that whereas an expensive camera is useless in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it or who hasn't got any kind of vision beyond snapshots, the right tools are extremely important for the right job. My opinion is that someone with at least a modicum of talent really needs good equipment to express the talent adequately.
 12/16/2006 11:24:58 AM · #3
Originally posted by levyj413:
Just to start a useless argument on a boring Saturday morning ...

We keep hearing "it's the photographer, not the camera" so why is it so hard for point-and-shoots to crack the top ranks? No need to point out the exceptions - they're still exceptions.

I'm guessing it's still the photographer, but that the more experienced ones eventually buy SLRs. I'm certainly keeping a list of why I want one (not to win on DPC, but for things like better low-light performance).

What do YOU think?


I think that in general, people with DSLRs have been photographers for quite awhile by the time they make the investment, and their cameras are frankly capable of more, with a larger menu of options, wider range of shutter speeds and ISOs, and the ability to swap out lenses to suit whatever subject they're shooting. The P&S crowd is often still learning, or just beginning to become a serious amateur and is stuck with cameras that just can't do crazy things like 30 minute exposures at 1200 ISO, and forget lens selectivity. My camera, for instance, can do 8 seconds, f8.0, and ISO400, max. No matter how well I know my camera and how to use it, it's simply not going to compete with a DSLR with a beast of a lens, crazy aperatures and shutter speeds of which I can only dream, and in-camera editing features like double exposures and whatnot. It's like wondering why the Ferrari always wins a race against a Yugo.
 12/16/2006 11:28:52 AM · #4
I think that there are some characteristics to photographs that tend to score well in this site that are better achieved with DSLRs than with P&S, for example sharpness or DOF.
Other important aspect is that more experienced photographers will use this type of cameras rather than P&S, thus experience and expertise showing in their photographs.
 12/16/2006 11:30:09 AM · #5
I think karmabreeze nailed it. In general, the dSLR user has worked with a camera for a while. It's not always true, but I believe it's the norm. Mostly dSLR users are ex-P&Sers that realized the limitations of thier cameras and stepped up.

The guys with the Nikon D2Xs or Canon 5Ds, however, are just compensating for something else ;-P
 12/16/2006 11:30:58 AM · #6
I think it's just the fact that as photographers improve their skills, they want to upgrade their equipment (especially true on this site, where it's nearly an obsession!).
 12/16/2006 11:34:21 AM · #7
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

The guys with the Nikon D2Xs or Canon 5Ds, however, are just compensating for something else ;-P



12/16/2006 11:37:50 AM · #8
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
I think karmabreeze nailed it. In general, the dSLR user has worked with a camera for a while. It's not always true, but I believe it's the norm. Mostly dSLR users are ex-P&Sers that realized the limitations of thier cameras and stepped up.

The guys with the Nikon D2Xs or Canon 5Ds, however, are just compensating for something else ;-P


WOW!! Why you gotta go there Leroy?? ;-P
What are the girls with 5D's compensating for?

Message edited by author 2006-12-16 11:39:57.
 12/16/2006 11:43:41 AM · #9
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:

WOW!! Why you gotta go there Leroy?? ;-P
What are the girls with 5D's compensating for?


Lack of what the men are compensating for?
 12/16/2006 11:54:54 AM · #10
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:

WOW!! Why you gotta go there Leroy?? ;-P
What are the girls with 5D's compensating for?


Lack of what the men are compensating for?


:O as a woman with a 5D I'm completely appauld!!! lol ;)

j/k
 12/16/2006 11:57:20 AM · #11
If it's the photographer, why do SLRs usually win?

Same reason why I can beat Schumacher if he's in a Corolla and I am in a Pagani Zonda ;-)

A dSLR can do more things than a P&S, and sometimes even though a person may have a brilliant idea, a little camera will not have the options to make it happen.
 12/16/2006 11:58:27 AM · #12
Originally posted by Louis:
My opinion is that someone with at least a modicum of talent really needs good equipment to express the talent adequately.


I agree with this. and also, not that great things can't be done with a point and shoot but the level of consistancy is higher with a DSLR. I think.
 12/16/2006 12:00:21 PM · #13
In my opinion most of the people that spend the extra $$$$ to get an SLR and lenses are very interested and more serious about photography than many of the users that use point-and-shoots. Therefore they spend more time at it and as a result get better photographs.
 12/16/2006 12:11:24 PM · #14
I imagine that it's a similar situation with anything.
Why are the violinists that play a Stradivarius so much better?
It's just a mistaken reversal of cause and effect.

With that said, there are still plenty SLR owners who are mediocre photographers (myself, for example)

Message edited by author 2006-12-16 12:12:05.
 12/16/2006 12:44:55 PM · #15
For complete expression of talent, the fine craftsman uses fine tools.
 12/16/2006 12:45:35 PM · #16
In the past few weeks I realised how difficult watercolour painting is. I always thought it was the 'easy' one (i.e. easier than oils or acrylics) - But it is in fact very unforgiving.

I also realised that the quality of paper you use makes a big big difference. If you use low grade paper for watercolours you're making life very difficult for yourself.

So my point is.... I'm still crap at painting. Even with good quality paper. :-)
 12/16/2006 12:47:10 PM · #17
There really can't be any debate about this: it boils down to the fact that, with few exceptions, as photographers get better they gravitate towards better gear. I believe the consensus in this thread is correct on that.

And the dSLR actually IS, in the main, "better gear" than the average P&S. There are some areas where it doesn't make a difference, and other areas where it makes all the difference in the world. The main difference is the MUCH larger sensor on the dSLR, which translates into much smoother imaging performance. There IS a P&S on the market now (Sony I think? I can't remember offhand) with an APS-C sensor, and this one can compete with dSLR cameras pixel-for-pixel, but usually P&S sensors are absolutely TINY compared to their big brothers.

Speaking very specifically of the sort of work I like to do (landscapes), the HUGE advantage of the dSLR is the availability of high-quality, ultra wide angle glass. There's no P&S that can approach the coverage of the 10-22mm lens that I'm aware of.

Nevertheless, as others have pointed out, in the end it's what you make of the tool, not what the tool makes of you. I'll take the good photographer with "vision" over the mediocre photographer with pro-quality gear every time and give odds to boot.

R.
 12/16/2006 10:35:12 PM · #18
If you really want to compare, look up any dslr under equipment and begin to browse. I have looked up Canons, and did a calculation, and there are more photos that are 5 or below than there are 6 or above. So I know that camera has a lot to do with it, but when you really look at the images taken with a dslr, you will see there are plenty of images that don't score so well, despite the fact that a dslr was used. That goes back to that eye that everybody keeps talking about. I don't have it very often, so my scores overall are the same whether I use the Olympus D550z 3.1 megapixel, the Sony H-1 5.6 megapixel, or the new Alpha Dslr I have been using lately.
As a matter of fact, I did another calculation comparing my scores with the Alpha and the H-1, and overall the H-1 scores are better, and that is a point and shoot.
 12/16/2006 10:46:36 PM · #19
lets see how drachoo does with his backup camera... or as some have suggested, try a p&s challenge.

tiger woods would shoot great with a set of clubs from a garage sale, beating me with any set available in the world. but, if tiger was playing against himself, i would assume that the game he played with the high end clubs would (usually) win.
 12/17/2006 12:35:35 AM · #20
Originally posted by asimchoudhri:
lets see how drachoo does with his backup camera... or as some have suggested, try a p&s challenge.

tiger woods would shoot great with a set of clubs from a garage sale, beating me with any set available in the world. but, if tiger was playing against himself, i would assume that the game he played with the high end clubs would (usually) win.


Ha, well, I'll do ok, but I know I could have easily done better with a dSLR. A P&S, especially an old one, just doesn't have the capabilities I demand of a camera.
 12/17/2006 01:49:58 AM · #21
Over the past summer my friend and I were out shooting, me with my P&S and him with dSLR. We would literally take the exact same shots and his nearly every time came out much better.

Like previously stated, DOF is a huge part of the equation, but there is just something better about using quality equipment.
 12/18/2006 09:26:21 PM · #22
I did the same thing with my Sony H-1 and the Sony Alpha. It is kind of cool to have a point and shoot and a dslr with you, then you can do just that, take one shot with the p&s and the other with the dslr. Because they are both by Sony, it makes it even more interesting. In all honesty, one shot I took in particular (French Country in my b&w gallery) was taken with the 12x zoom on the H1, and then taken with the 18-70 zoom on the dslr. In order to get the right crop, I had to cut down the dslr image substantially to match the zoom of the H1. Then upon looking at virtually the same image, the dslr image, even with severe cropping, was much more precise and clearer looking then the H1 image. Same light, same time of day, same conditions. The question that has been nagging at me, (do dslr images do better when put up against the same image with a p&s) was finally answered.
Originally posted by mattmunger:
Over the past summer my friend and I were out shooting, me with my P&S and him with dSLR. We would literally take the exact same shots and his nearly every time came out much better.

Like previously stated, DOF is a huge part of the equation, but there is just something better about using quality equipment.
12/18/2006 09:34:33 PM · #23
I shot my only ribbon with a Canon G2 Point and Shoot so sometimes I think it is about the subject and composition. Not the camera. I just think that most of the better photographers use an SLR because of the flexibility they offer. Now I just need a ribbon with my SLR. :-)


12/18/2006 09:59:17 PM · #24
Maybe this is leading to a challenge involving only P&S cameras, with divisions for 3mp or less, and 3.2 and up?
12/18/2006 10:09:16 PM · #25
Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:
Maybe this is leading to a challenge involving only P&S cameras, with divisions for 3mp or less, and 3.2 and up?

suggested many times, but never happened. Would be darned interesting tho.
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