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10/22/2003 09:31:58 PM · #1
41917.jpg

Despite David's protests, I still think this is one of the stronger images I've shot. Besides the challenge connection (erosion isn't the result of science and it's not something scientists study?) what could I have done differently? I know a few of you wanted to see it in color. Would that have helped?
10/22/2003 09:52:43 PM · #2
I think this is an absolutely stunning shot, I certainly can't suggest how to improve it.

I think it probably did not do as well as it might due to the challenge topic.

Yes, erosion is studied by scientists, but then so is just about everything. I can see how it can be classed as valid for the topic, but I imagine that a lot of people would see it and vote it down as not meeting the challenge. I admit that, although I absolutely love this photo, it does not scream "Science!!!" at me.

Maybe think in these terms, just an idea I just had .....

Take one of the entries with a microscope, test tubes, or something very obviously associated with science. Show it to someone who does not know about the challenge. Get them to do a word association thing with the photo, they would probably come up with the word "science" in their first few goes.

Objectively try and consider the same exercise with that photo, remember, no hint at all to the viewer. Would "science" come up as a word to associate with that photo? Yes, probably, but I'd imagine there would be an awful lot of other suggestions first.

With all that in mind, I am guessing that may be the reason this scored mid 5's, when on pure photo quality alone it would be right up there in the top scores imho.

Some people adjust for topics. For instance some might love a photo and then drop it a point if they think it doesn't meet the challenge. Some people just mark instantly as a 1 I think (judging by other threads). Some people will even mark up a photo for seeing a real attempt to make the challenge. I am guessing you got hit by the first two, and didn't gain from the third at all.

Just my thoughts on what may have happened, as I don't think the score reflects the photo so much as the challenge.

I still maintain though that this is a stunning photo, so don't let the score get you down :)
10/22/2003 09:58:18 PM · #3
artistic and unique ways of using the theme score highly in my mind.

but artistic is relative to the viewer...

i think its a fine photo

soup
10/22/2003 10:01:55 PM · #4
The only thing I can say is who cares what others think. You said that its the best photo you have ever taken, and you edited it the way that made you most happy with the image. Why should you change that?

I know what I say probably means little, but I think you chose wisely to use black and white, and I know people complained about the forground, but I think that too, as it makes the image more 3dimensional.

I myself love the image, but the only thing I would maybe change is the top, for some reason I wish there was a little more room at the top before the waterfall starts, if that makes sense.

Matt its perfect, as its the way YOU wanted it.
10/22/2003 10:08:18 PM · #5
Also, I think another way some people react in regards to 'meeting the challenge' is:

"Nice photo, but looks like they've picked their best shot for the week and squeezed it into the topic".

This could be an example of the above. I can imagine someone walking through a Nature Park, taking shots as they with no thought of a specific topic, getting home, finding their best pic, and THEN working out how it fits into the topic.

I'm not saying you did this, mavrik, just that I can see impulse voters thinking this in the 5 seconds they take to look at a photo before they vote.

I also thought it was a fantastic photo, but I didnt rate it in the high marks because I felt it didnt convey 'Science!', as natator said.
10/22/2003 10:11:04 PM · #6
Don't look at me. I gave you an 8.

As far as meeting the challenge:

Geology: Erosion
Hydrogeology: rivers
Physics: Potential Energy to Kinetic Energy
Chemistry: Obsorption of oxygen in the water
Meteorology: Misting and evaporation of rain water entering the atmosphere
Zoology: End of the line for migrating fish
Botony: Vegetation thriving on the excessive humidity

I am sure there are more.
10/22/2003 10:23:50 PM · #7
I hear you Trinch, but do the exercise, theoretically, I suggested .....

How many words would you associate with this photo, if you did not know of the challenge, BEFORE you said "Science". I'd venture a whole lot more than a photo of a test tube.

I think that is what happened here.

I think sleekr put it very well with his comment on squeezing in photos as they happen to have a really good one this week. I think this may happen quite a lot but people find ways to justify to themselves that it really can be used. "Yes, I know it's a picture of a rabbit and the topic is "Flowers" but I saw this rabbit once eating a daisy ....."

I don't think this is the case here as I think mavrik has genuinely seen this in his eyes as science ..... but looking only at photo and title I am guessing that many people did not make the same connection.

One line from the challenge rules page states:

"While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the
topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly. "

I know some people ignore this and other use it as an absolute law.

Look at the challenge and say the voting was to simply put the photos in order of how well they portray the word "Science" (regardless of photo quality) then I think this photo would be way down the list. Reverse it and ignore topic then it would be way up the top.

If some people have taken the line from the rules and applied it here, in good faith, then scoring down if they can not make the connection between the photo and the topic isn't really wrong of them.

I'm not making excuses for anyone, no matter how high or low they voted .... just looking for an explanation on why this photo may not has scored as well as had been hoped.

Think further ..... had the topic been "Water" (or similar) do you think this photo would have received a higher score? Personally I think it would definately have scored better, and thus the topic is again the issue, rightly or wrongly, and not the excellent photo.

Interestingly, I notice that this photo got quite a lot of 1's and also quite a lot of 10's. I feel this is indicative of the different voting patterns, where people have either ignored the topic when they vote, or else made the connection like the author, or else hit it with a 1 as it did not meet the challenge, as realistically there is no way in hell on photographic quality alone this photo could ever be a 1.

Topic, topic topic ... not the photo. Don't beat yourself up about the photo quality, it really is fantastic.

Message edited by author 2003-10-22 22:28:41.
10/22/2003 10:27:46 PM · #8
I apologize already for this post, but this is for all the times I saw people complaining being voted low for not fitting the subject.
This is a very nice capture, nothing to say about that. Really well done.
The problem is it doesn't evoke science to me. At all. If the title was not there, do you really believe people would think: "oh, a nice picture of erosion." No. What I see in this beautiful image is water, nature, and stretching a little: the power of nature. But not science. No way.
Imagine you're a photographer for the New York Times. Your boss asks you to illustrate an article about science. You come back with this shot. Do you really believe he'll be happy?
At school your teacher is asking for an assay about science, its study, or what it achieved. You give him an assay about waterfalls. Do you think you'll get a good grade? Please...
Now, if I follow your logic, I would come up with a pic of anything, and of course anything may be related to science. Every single thing. A picture of a painting. Because yes: some scientists study paintings.
Please, please, try to stick to the subject.
I apologize again if I hurt somebody's feelings with this.
10/22/2003 10:46:42 PM · #9
I, for one, had some real troubles with the voting on the science challenge. Yours was one of a host of excellent images... things I wish I could shoot, but it didn't say 'science' to me either. I think that we could take pictures of almost anything, and link it to almost any subject.

A lot of art is interpretation, and I'm not saying you're wrong (nor, for that matter, did I give your photorgaph a low score... quite the contrary). I'm saying that in general, I have trouble grading a lot of shots because they don't fall into the category for me, and if I vote based upon how great a shot is rather than the category, then why do we have categories?

It's a tough question for which I honestly wish I had a better answer.
10/22/2003 10:51:58 PM · #10
I taught science for awhile. If one of my kids illustrate an article on erosion with a pic of a waterfall, I'd have said "yes, absolutely!"

I understand what you mean about tenuous connections to the challenge topic - I'm really surprised this was one of them. Yes, anything COULD be tied to science - isn't that the point of not having a "laboratory" challenge? Why beakers? What does a plasma energy ball have to do with science any more than running water?

*still confused, not thinking I'm going to learn how to read LMV anytime soon*

M
10/22/2003 10:57:59 PM · #11
Mavrik: the actual analogy woud be to illustrate an article about science with a waterfall.

You're right, a plasma energy ball is not intrinsically more related to science than a waterfall, but the fact is, it does convey the idea of science. That's what we're looking for.
10/22/2003 11:12:57 PM · #12
No offense to Amazoneea, but....

Why is a picture of a waterfall any less science than one of a clapping ladybug?
10/22/2003 11:38:52 PM · #13
I can't be offended, Trinch. All I did was to submit a picture. I couldn't disect the ladybug, I just couldn't. The challenge said "the subject" as well, so I considered I might take a picture of the subject alive. Actually, I took 1245 pictures of the same bug until I've got this one. I did not decided that my bug should be above the waterfall. The voters did. And also the voters seems to consider that my All Alone submision is not worthed more than 5,3
I can't change that, even if I think that my last submission is better than my first.
10/22/2003 11:46:55 PM · #14
Originally posted by mavrik:

I taught science for awhile. If one of my kids illustrate an article on erosion with a pic of a waterfall, I'd have said "yes, absolutely!"

I understand what you mean about tenuous connections to the challenge topic - I'm really surprised this was one of them. Yes, anything COULD be tied to science - isn't that the point of not having a "laboratory" challenge? Why beakers? What does a plasma energy ball have to do with science any more than running water?


Mav, I love ya man, but I've seen your work, and that's not your best pic.

either 24523.jpg or 17739.jpg are your best pix. I'm just sayin.

Pedro

Message edited by author 2003-10-22 23:55:43.
10/23/2003 01:24:49 AM · #15
Amazonea, I should also have mentioned that your picture was spectacular. The point I was trying to make is that there is nothing in this world isn't science. I am usually I stickler for what meets the challenge and typically penalize heavily for failing to do so. In the science challenge, I did not deduct any points from anyone due to not meeting the challenge.
10/23/2003 01:54:15 AM · #16
I GRACEfully thank you, Trinch. :)
10/23/2003 02:00:35 AM · #17
Quick, hold that pose amazoneea!!!

I am totally stumped for a photo for "Grace". I'll snap one of you thanking Trinch and my problem is solved!
10/23/2003 02:02:18 AM · #18
WOW,Amazonea "Avg Vote Cast: 9.3421 "

You are something :-)
10/23/2003 02:09:05 AM · #19
That is because I just couldn't rate the ones that I didn't like, so I just pointed to the ones I have considered good. I thought it would be better for now just to leave the others to decide if the ones I didn't like were bad pictures or pictures too good for me to understand. I am trying to learn more and I will be able to rate bad pictures accordingly.
10/23/2003 02:12:14 AM · #20
Originally posted by amazoneea:

That is because I just couldn't rate the ones that I didn't like, so I just pointed to the ones I have considered good. I thought it would be better for now just to leave the others to decide if the ones I didn't like were bad pictures or pictures too good for me to understand. I am trying to learn more and I will be able to rate bad pictures accordingly.

Maybe you are right,in the last voting (alone) I saw lot of 3's and fours...
10/23/2003 02:17:44 AM · #21
Then I should be happy that my average is about 5.3. I thought my picture was really bad this time.
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