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11/16/2006 09:07:45 PM · #51
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by ursula:

I like giving scalvert a hard time


Who doesn't? :-/


Awwww! Poor Shannon. That's OK, I like you a lot. :)
11/16/2006 09:08:42 PM · #52
You won't next Tuesday. ;-P
11/16/2006 09:09:43 PM · #53
Just to be sure you know my position, the Site Council has spoken, and in retrospect, I feel I could have been more careful.

For those who are interested, here is the original image, resized for DPC, and the dq-ed image:

. . .

PP: distort (instead of crop), autocolor, and various forms of sharpening and NeatImage. It really didn't take a whole lot of work.

Message edited by author 2006-11-16 21:11:30.
11/16/2006 09:09:59 PM · #54
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by yanko:

Dare I ask why?


The Basic Rules allow global edits that enhance the quality of the image as-captured. They allow adjustment of color, tonality, degree of sharpness and noise removal. Other than cropping, they don't allow anything that would "physically" change the content of the image (cloning, distortion, etc.).


Every other global editing enhancement is done with adjustment layers except for those two, which makes them odd ducks. In the case of unsharp mask it allows people to give their image a dodged/burned effect even though the traditional way of doing that is illegal.

As for blurring, I can understand the logic of allowing motion blur to a photo that already has it but I don't understand why a gaussian blur can be applied legally if the photo didn't already have a soft focus look to start out.

Originally posted by scalvert:


Because the rules say so. ;-P


Aww crap. I forgot that line. Nevermind. :P
11/16/2006 09:19:13 PM · #55
Is distortion OK in advanced editing? I see no reference to distortion in the rules, other than that you may not "use distortions to create new effects or radically alter objects."

Maybe the use of the four-corner Distort filter should be more specifically addressed.
11/16/2006 09:37:03 PM · #56
Originally posted by mycelium:

you may not "use distortions to create new effects or radically alter objects.


That's your answer. You can use distortions otherwise (correctively), but not in a manner that the distortion itself becomes a feature.
11/16/2006 09:48:59 PM · #57
So the use of "filters" (as defined in PS) - specifically Diffuse Glow (applied to the whole image) - is that legal in Basic?

Seems to me, that the definition of "enhancing the image" is rather subjective and only the photographer can make the assessment of what enhances and what doesn't.

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by yanko:

Dare I ask why?


Because the rules say so. ;-P

The Basic Rules allow global edits that enhance the quality of the image as-captured. They allow adjustment of color, tonality, degree of sharpness and noise removal. Other than cropping, they don't allow anything that would "physically" change the content of the image (cloning, distortion, etc.).

11/16/2006 09:54:34 PM · #58
Originally posted by papagei:

So the use of "filters" (as defined in PS) - specifically Diffuse Glow (applied to the whole image) - is that legal in Basic?

Seems to me, that the definition of "enhancing the image" is rather subjective and only the photographer can make the assessment of what enhances and what doesn't.


And for that reason, the actual rules document (either version) does not use the word enhance at all. The now-replaced Basic Rules IV (the rules in question) allow filters and utilities "designed and used to preserve the integrity of the image and/or reduce the effects of noise, scratches, etc." The new version says, "You may... use filters or stand-alone utilities designed to preserve image integrity (such as Neat Image, Unsharp Mask, Dust & Scratches, and color correction tools). These filters must be applied uniformly to the entire image, and must not be used in such a way that their use becomes a feature. No "effects" filters may be applied to your image, with the exception of Noise and Gaussian Blur."

~Terry
11/16/2006 10:08:35 PM · #59
Originally posted by scalvert:

Distortion has never been allowed in Basic. Distortions would either involve a filter (Lens Correction) or a selection used for something other than cropping...


Not true. In photoshop, I can use Edit>Transform>Distort. This does not involve a filter (it's not under the filter menu!) or a selection.

Originally posted by scalvert:

The only things allowed under the Filter menu are specifically those related to noise, blur or sharpen. The rest are off-limits.


Not true. Where does it say that "the rest are off-limits"? The only filters specifically disallowed are "effects filters". What the hell are effects filters?!? As Yanko mentioned, any adjustment could be considered an effect. The Basic IV rules are VERY unclear on this point.

Originally posted by scalvert:

Image distortion IS considered a filter or effect.


Where does it say this in the rules? In photoshop, "distort" is under the edit menu, not the filter menu.

Sorry, scalvert. Nothing personal. I'm just having fun playing devil's advocate here.

Look, I think we have to just admit to ourselves the the Basic IV rules pretty much sucked (hence the new, revised rules!). The only way for anyone to understand what "really" was allowed/disallowed by the rules was to stick around DPC long enough to learn from experience. Hopefully the new ruleset will be much better.

I'm being extra hard on the powers that be partly just to play devil's advocate, but also partly because I believe there's some truth to what I'm saying.

11/16/2006 10:15:02 PM · #60
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:

Not true. In photoshop, I can use Edit>Transform>Distort. This does not involve a filter (it's not under the filter menu!) or a selection.


Actually Keith, you are wrong. If you just open a file and click Edit>Transform>Distort you will get nowhere. You have to select the whole image before you can continue.
11/16/2006 10:15:11 PM · #61
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Distortion has never been allowed in Basic. Distortions would either involve a filter (Lens Correction) or a selection used for something other than cropping...


Not true. In photoshop, I can use Edit>Transform>Distort. This does not involve a filter (it's not under the filter menu!) or a selection.


You have to select points on the image for Photoshop to use in creating the distortion.

Edited to add: Also, the Edit/Transform menu is grayed out unless you've made a selection.

~Terry

Message edited by author 2006-11-16 22:27:25.
11/16/2006 10:17:11 PM · #62
I still don't know if Diffuse Glow is allowed. It does distort in one sense of the word (blurring and lightening) - but if applied uniformly - is it legal in basic?
I really need to know which effect (applied to the whole image) are legal in Basic. Sorry to be a pain, but it's the only way I'll know what I can and cannot do.

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by papagei:

So the use of "filters" (as defined in PS) - specifically Diffuse Glow (applied to the whole image) - is that legal in Basic?

Seems to me, that the definition of "enhancing the image" is rather subjective and only the photographer can make the assessment of what enhances and what doesn't.


And for that reason, the actual rules document (either version) does not use the word enhance at all. The now-replaced Basic Rules IV (the rules in question) allow filters and utilities "designed and used to preserve the integrity of the image and/or reduce the effects of noise, scratches, etc." The new version says, "You may... use filters or stand-alone utilities designed to preserve image integrity (such as Neat Image, Unsharp Mask, Dust & Scratches, and color correction tools). These filters must be applied uniformly to the entire image, and must not be used in such a way that their use becomes a feature. No "effects" filters may be applied to your image, with the exception of Noise and Gaussian Blur."

~Terry

11/16/2006 10:21:48 PM · #63
Originally posted by papagei:

I still don't know if Diffuse Glow is allowed. It does distort in one sense of the word (blurring and lightening) - but if applied uniformly - is it legal in basic?
I really need to know which effect (applied to the whole image) are legal in Basic. Sorry to be a pain, but it's the only way I'll know what I can and cannot do.

I think it was considered illegal under the old Basic rules. I don't know enough about it to know under the current rules, but it's definitely legal to not use it ... : )

At a guess, if someone could look at the picture and say "I think they ran the Gothic Glow filter on that" it's probably not legal.

You might try submitting a before/after sample of the image via the Ticket system to get a more accurate (if informal) opinion based on a real image instead of a hypothetical.
11/16/2006 10:22:50 PM · #64
Originally posted by papagei:

I still don't know if Diffuse Glow is allowed. It does distort in one sense of the word (blurring and lightening) - but if applied uniformly - is it legal in basic?
I really need to know which effect (applied to the whole image) are legal in Basic. Sorry to be a pain, but it's the only way I'll know what I can and cannot do.

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by papagei:

So the use of "filters" (as defined in PS) - specifically Diffuse Glow (applied to the whole image) - is that legal in Basic?

Seems to me, that the definition of "enhancing the image" is rather subjective and only the photographer can make the assessment of what enhances and what doesn't.


And for that reason, the actual rules document (either version) does not use the word enhance at all. The now-replaced Basic Rules IV (the rules in question) allow filters and utilities "designed and used to preserve the integrity of the image and/or reduce the effects of noise, scratches, etc." The new version says, "You may... use filters or stand-alone utilities designed to preserve image integrity (such as Neat Image, Unsharp Mask, Dust & Scratches, and color correction tools). These filters must be applied uniformly to the entire image, and must not be used in such a way that their use becomes a feature. No "effects" filters may be applied to your image, with the exception of Noise and Gaussian Blur."

~Terry


Well, since Diffuse Glow is neither Noise nor Gaussian Blur, and since it creates an effect, and it's under the Filters menu... I'd say that's a no.
11/16/2006 10:24:55 PM · #65
Originally posted by papagei:

I still don't know if Diffuse Glow is allowed. It does distort in one sense of the word (blurring and lightening) - but if applied uniformly - is it legal in basic?
I really need to know which effect (applied to the whole image) are legal in Basic. Sorry to be a pain, but it's the only way I'll know what I can and cannot do.

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by papagei:

So the use of "filters" (as defined in PS) - specifically Diffuse Glow (applied to the whole image) - is that legal in Basic?

Seems to me, that the definition of "enhancing the image" is rather subjective and only the photographer can make the assessment of what enhances and what doesn't.


And for that reason, the actual rules document (either version) does not use the word enhance at all. The now-replaced Basic Rules IV (the rules in question) allow filters and utilities "designed and used to preserve the integrity of the image and/or reduce the effects of noise, scratches, etc." The new version says, "You may... use filters or stand-alone utilities designed to preserve image integrity (such as Neat Image, Unsharp Mask, Dust & Scratches, and color correction tools). These filters must be applied uniformly to the entire image, and must not be used in such a way that their use becomes a feature. No "effects" filters may be applied to your image, with the exception of Noise and Gaussian Blur."

~Terry


No. It's an "effects" filter, and certainly not "designed to preserve image integrity." This means it may not be used at all, even if applied to the entire image.

~Terry
11/16/2006 10:33:15 PM · #66
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Keith Maniac:

Not true. In photoshop, I can use Edit>Transform>Distort. This does not involve a filter (it's not under the filter menu!) or a selection.


Actually Keith, you are wrong. If you just open a file and click Edit>Transform>Distort you will get nowhere. You have to select the whole image before you can continue.


You're right (I just tried it in Photoshop). I stand corrected. I could have sworn you could do it without a selection. But clearly I was wrong. I humbly withdraw my statement :)

Edit to add: apologies to scalvert!

Message edited by author 2006-11-16 22:38:19.
11/16/2006 10:34:53 PM · #67
Oh boy - I am getting more and more confused.
Channel Mixer is ok - but if it switches the red/blue for an IR shot - that is not preserving the integrity (by strict def) - it is adding an effect (kinda) - so is that legal??
You guys in SC will have to look at a whole lot of images before challenges now :)


11/16/2006 10:36:05 PM · #68
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Keith Maniac:

Not true. In photoshop, I can use Edit>Transform>Distort. This does not involve a filter (it's not under the filter menu!) or a selection.


Actually Keith, you are wrong. If you just open a file and click Edit>Transform>Distort you will get nowhere. You have to select the whole image before you can continue.


You're right (I just tried it in Photoshop). I stand corrected. I could have sworn you could do it without a selection. But clearly I was wrong. I humbly withdraw my statement :)


Um, actually, once a layer is unlocked, Ctrl+T will select the entire thing.

11/16/2006 10:44:27 PM · #69
Originally posted by papagei:

Channel Mixer is ok - but if it switches the red/blue for an IR shot - that is not preserving the integrity (by strict def)


Channel Mixer falls under the next clause: "You may... saturate, desaturate or change the colors of your entry, but no selections are allowed."

Changing fom color to sepia or B&W isn't preserving image integrity either, hence all (global) color shifts are allowed.
11/16/2006 10:45:36 PM · #70
Originally posted by rinac:

Um, actually, once a layer is unlocked, Ctrl+T will select the entire thing.


The key word there is "select," which you can't do in Basic except to crop or add a border.
11/16/2006 10:50:16 PM · #71
Originally posted by papagei:

Oh boy - I am getting more and more confused.
Channel Mixer is ok - but if it switches the red/blue for an IR shot - that is not preserving the integrity (by strict def) - it is adding an effect (kinda) - so is that legal??
You guys in SC will have to look at a whole lot of images before challenges now :)

Color adjustments/shifts are allowed pretty much without restriction. In Photoshop, you find those in the Adjustments menu or as an Adjustment Layer. The concept of "image integrity" does not apply to the colors of the objects in your picture, but only to the presence/abscence, location, or shape of those objects.

You can change somethng's color, but not its shape or location, except by use of the specified list of filters.

Here is an example of mine which used legal tools* to an extreme degree -- I don't know how close it is to "Gothic Glow" though ... : )



There's a link to a resized original and a complete list of editing steps in the image's discusstion thread.

*Minor cloning pretty irrelevant to overall effect -- all othr editing was legal under old Basic Rules.
11/16/2006 10:55:26 PM · #72
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by rinac:

Um, actually, once a layer is unlocked, Ctrl+T will select the entire thing.


The key word there is "select," which you can't do in Basic except to crop or add a border.


Yup, I get that :) Just thought it sounded confusing to suggest you need to use another selection tool before using Transform on an entire layer.

11/17/2006 01:13:37 AM · #73
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Keith Maniac:

Not true. In photoshop, I can use Edit>Transform>Distort. This does not involve a filter (it's not under the filter menu!) or a selection.


Actually Keith, you are wrong. If you just open a file and click Edit>Transform>Distort you will get nowhere. You have to select the whole image before you can continue.


You're right (I just tried it in Photoshop). I stand corrected. I could have sworn you could do it without a selection. But clearly I was wrong. I humbly withdraw my statement :)

Edit to add: apologies to scalvert!


The only way I know this is because I have spent literally five minutes cursing the screen because I couldn't get Transform to work... :)
11/17/2006 01:19:34 AM · #74
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by papagei:

So the use of "filters" (as defined in PS) - specifically Diffuse Glow (applied to the whole image) - is that legal in Basic?

Seems to me, that the definition of "enhancing the image" is rather subjective and only the photographer can make the assessment of what enhances and what doesn't.


And for that reason, the actual rules document (either version) does not use the word enhance at all. The now-replaced Basic Rules IV (the rules in question) allow filters and utilities "designed and used to preserve the integrity of the image and/or reduce the effects of noise, scratches, etc." The new version says, "You may... use filters or stand-alone utilities designed to preserve image integrity (such as Neat Image, Unsharp Mask, Dust & Scratches, and color correction tools). These filters must be applied uniformly to the entire image, and must not be used in such a way that their use becomes a feature. No "effects" filters may be applied to your image, with the exception of Noise and Gaussian Blur."

~Terry


Except in the case of Unsharp Mask when applied as a local contrast booster does just that i.e. adds an effect similar to the dodge/burn effect, which is very much illegal in basic. Unsharp Mask applied in that way is by no means an attempt to "preserve image integrity". Far from it.

My opinion of course. :)

Message edited by author 2006-11-17 01:24:26.
11/17/2006 01:32:31 AM · #75
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Keith Maniac:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Keith Maniac:

Not true. In photoshop, I can use Edit>Transform>Distort. This does not involve a filter (it's not under the filter menu!) or a selection.


Actually Keith, you are wrong. If you just open a file and click Edit>Transform>Distort you will get nowhere. You have to select the whole image before you can continue.


You're right (I just tried it in Photoshop). I stand corrected. I could have sworn you could do it without a selection. But clearly I was wrong. I humbly withdraw my statement :)

Edit to add: apologies to scalvert!


The only way I know this is because I have spent literally five minutes cursing the screen because I couldn't get Transform to work... :)


You guys are all getting confused here. You DO NOT need to select anything to use the distort tool. All you need to do is work on a non-locked layer and go to Edit/Transform/Distort without doing anything else. Selections are those little moving dashes, which is not the same as the control box with anchor points that you are presented with when you use the distort tool.
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