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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> My take on pictures not meeting the challenge.
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10/17/2003 02:03:28 PM · #1
Personally, I am VERY generous in giving people the benefit of interpretation without dinging their score. On the other hand, if, in my opinion, they totally ignored the challenge, then they get a 1. Frankly, even the most beautiful photograph will get a 1 if the challenge says sky and they photograph the ground.

Why?

Well, if I hire a photographer to photograph my wedding and I get pictures of someone else's wedding, then, even if they are the most spectacular wedding photos in the world, I am not paying. The wrong topic far superceeds the quality of the photograph.

Or, to put it another way, if my drawing teacher asks me to draw a cat and I submit the most spectacular drawing of a dog, there isn't much I can say when he/she gives me an 'F'. The last thing I would expected is for the teacher to say, "It's a spectacular drawing but it is of the wrong animal. I'll lower your A to a B."

EDIT: Maybe I should comment asking for an explanation of why they feel it meets the challenge and raise their score if they provide an explanation (even if it's a long stretch)

Message edited by author 2003-10-17 14:06:09.
10/17/2003 02:20:14 PM · #2
I'm just the opposite. Recently, I have stopped considering the challenge topic when I vote. I vote solely on the merit of the photo itself.
10/17/2003 02:24:08 PM · #3
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I'm just the opposite. Recently, I have stopped considering the challenge topic when I vote. I vote solely on the merit of the photo itself.


Then what's the point of having topic-based challenges?
10/17/2003 02:25:44 PM · #4
I agree, I have seen some that would not even come close to meeting the challenge, and then I have gotten one comment that said that it did not meet the challenge, when it definitely does. I cannot mention the picture because it is being voted on, but I felt like.. do I have to draw this person a picture, this was definitely on challenge, no stretch. LOL.. I guess griping is what makes the world go round...:)
10/17/2003 02:30:27 PM · #5
Originally posted by neenee1999:

I agree, I have seen some that would not even come close to meeting the challenge, and then I have gotten one comment that said that it did not meet the challenge, when it definitely does. I cannot mention the picture because it is being voted on, but I felt like.. do I have to draw this person a picture, this was definitely on challenge, no stretch. LOL.. I guess griping is what makes the world go round...:)


One vote out of about 150 isn't going to change your score more than .06 points, so I wouldn't worry about it that much.
10/17/2003 02:33:47 PM · #6
This is not a wedding and sure not a school and if you wish giving ones it's up to you,I haven't given one recently i didn't saw any reason for doing that!
People spent money bought equipment, drive car to certain place (gas money) took photos,spent couple of hours digital processing and uploading and I do reward that at least 2-5 points!
10/17/2003 02:35:33 PM · #7
Originally posted by pitsaman:

This is not a wedding and sure not a school and if you wish giving ones it's up to you,I haven't given one recently i didn't saw any reason for doing that!
People spent money bought equipment, drive car to certain place (gas money) took photos,spent couple of hours digital processing and uploading and I do reward that at least 2-5 points!


I like your thinking. Even some of the more snapshotish photos deserve that much.
10/17/2003 02:36:50 PM · #8
Originally posted by Trinch:

Personally, I am VERY generous in giving people the benefit of interpretation without dinging their score. On the other hand, if, in my opinion, they totally ignored the challenge, then they get a 1. Frankly, even the most beautiful photograph will get a 1 if the challenge says sky and they photograph the ground.

Why?

Well, if I hire a photographer to photograph my wedding and I get pictures of someone else's wedding, then, even if they are the most spectacular wedding photos in the world, I am not paying. The wrong topic far superceeds the quality of the photograph.

Or, to put it another way, if my drawing teacher asks me to draw a cat and I submit the most spectacular drawing of a dog, there isn't much I can say when he/she gives me an 'F'. The last thing I would expected is for the teacher to say, "It's a spectacular drawing but it is of the wrong animal. I'll lower your A to a B."

EDIT: Maybe I should comment asking for an explanation of why they feel it meets the challenge and raise their score if they provide an explanation (even if it's a long stretch)


And very interestingly people like you who are pushing for meeting the challenge over and over again have "0" favorite photographs !
Do you think you are the best and out of 47000 photos in database there is no photo which catch your eye?
10/17/2003 02:39:34 PM · #9
Hey Cool cats!

Where does subjectivity come into play when figuring out if a photo meets the subject on a challenge? 'Cause I'm finding that some folks think that a photo is good to great in meeting the mchallenge while others flat out say that it has nothing to do with the challenge.

I think we all are put to the test by other voters and are on the same plain if some vote according to meeting the challenge while others don't. It's not like some people are being judge based on meeting the challenge while others are not. If one is to give a score that is dependent upon that persons judgement on whether a photo meets the challenge than isn't s/he going to vote al the photos in the same way? Doesn't that make it fair?

I agree that scoring partly based on meeting the challenge requirements is good but I also don't do that all the time, especilly if I really like a photo. Perhaps we could reach out to the photographer and ask how, in their minds, does this photo relate to the challenge. I know that I have done so. Sometimes I've gotten a response.

This is all in fun and I feel that the challenge subjects add a little something to it all. I also know that I enjoy taking photos and like to be critiqued on my techniques & such. Sometimes that's more important than winning and meeting the challenge requirements.
10/17/2003 03:37:14 PM · #10
Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I'm just the opposite. Recently, I have stopped considering the challenge topic when I vote. I vote solely on the merit of the photo itself.


Then what's the point of having topic-based challenges?


I'm not against the topic based challenge at all.. I just choose not to use it in my voting criteria. I can't figure out a reasonable way to score for meeting the challenge or not. Some photos meet with more strength than others and some dont seem to meet at all. I can't determine a fair and exact way to score for it.

I also get to enjoy the photo much more when I ignore the challenge topics in my vote. Is it or is it not a great photo? That's all I look for.

10/17/2003 03:41:26 PM · #11
Originally posted by jmsetzler:



I'm not against the topic based challenge at all.. I just choose not to use it in my voting criteria. I can't figure out a reasonable way to score for meeting the challenge or not. Some photos meet with more strength than others and some dont seem to meet at all. I can't determine a fair and exact way to score for it.

I also get to enjoy the photo much more when I ignore the challenge topics in my vote. Is it or is it not a great photo? That's all I look for.


I think this is a great example of what I was getting at in the onanism thread. John isn't proposing that everyone should vote the way he does (at least I don't get that from what he's saying) but his completely non-challenge biased vote gets added to the great melting pot and in some way balances out the other challenge meeting extremist vote 1 for not meeting the topic view point
10/17/2003 05:59:44 PM · #12
There is inevitably an ongoing debate of how to/what to expect of a vote.

My rule of thumb is that first I "judge" whether I like the composition, exposure, subject and all things that click with me as far as the image itself goes. It would be fair to say that I have seen in the challenges I have voted on a wide range of "qualities" of image.

Then I take a view as how well I believe the challenge has been met - here I have to accept that ones geographic origin, ethnicity, religious inclination, gender and age will all have an influnece.

With the above in mind I offer my (hopefully) constructive comments and vote with a "weighting value" as how strong an image it is and how well it met the topic.

I very rarely give less than 4 - to do that there would have to be something sadly lacking in the image quality department combined with not topic meeting. Equally, the image has to be exceptional on both counts for me to give 8 or higher.

In conclusion (sorry if I have rambled on), this community has a very wide range of folk from around the world and the quality of a very large minority of the images is exceptional. It is my aim (and others I am sure) to aspire to get my photography recognised for it's quality within this peer group and perhaps offer a few of them for sale.

Just my slightly larger than 2p's worth to this thread.
10/17/2003 06:01:06 PM · #13
Originally posted by pitsaman:

People spent money bought equipment, drive car to certain place (gas money) took photos,spent couple of hours digital processing and uploading and I do reward that at least 2-5 points!


So why not make a site recommendation to remove the '1' vote? I mean, 'cause gee, they made some effort -- no one should get a one. But then, the 2 would become the logical one -- oh, we could remove that too -- in fact, let's just remove everything below 5 because gee, we don't want to hurt someone's feelings by possibly giving their photo the score deserves. But wouldn't that then make the 5 the logical one? OK -- just remove ALL the voting links EXCEPT the 10. That way we can all feel warm and fuzzy.

And because voting is such a hassle anyway 'cause I can't vote when only looking at the thumbnails, I want one button on the home page where I click and it votes on all the photos for me. Oh wait... maybe that should be automatic so I don't have to bother visiting the site at all. Yeah... that would work.

Taking my sarcastic hat off...

I like the way the current voting works. Everyone comes up with various rules for their personal way to vote and gives it a good shot. My only recommendation would be to normalize a given person's vote. Some people, for whatever reason, only vote 1, 2, or 3 -- then whine when their photo scores less than a 5. I say whatever a person votes in a challenge should be normalized so that after modification, their entire votes follow a standard bell curve of sorts, with a few 1's and a few 10's, with most votes in the 5 & 6 range.

Actually, what would be really cool would be to use the numbering for an initial pooling of photos, then the ability to sort those based on personal views so that the photos you voted on would be ranked 1 to n, with n being the number of photos voted on, and hopefully equal to the number of photos submitted. This would eliminate the random bias of those that vote 1, 2, or 3 only and those that never vote 1, 2, or 3, and give everyone equal and consistent input into the ranking. Using a balanced binary tree type sort would allow minimal comparisons of photos to interject them into your personal overall sort. You'd be presented with 2 pictures and you'd just have to pick the best one. A couple of clicks as it traversed the tree, and you'd be on to the next photo.

Clearly my head must have been cold after taking off my sarcastic hat -- I seem to have put on my computer geek hat. There must be a 'cool guy' hat in here somewhere....
10/17/2003 06:10:50 PM · #14


Message edited by author 2015-12-27 14:31:55.
10/17/2003 06:21:17 PM · #15
I've been taking a beating this week for not meeting the challenge. I wonder if my image had a beaker in it, would it be science?

And by the way, whoever started the "nature is not science" thread should be beaten. Just 2 c

M
10/17/2003 06:49:02 PM · #16
Originally posted by mavrik:

And by the way, whoever started the "nature is not science" thread should be beaten. Just 2 c


The study of nature is a science, but a leaf is not botany, and an insect is not entomology.
10/17/2003 06:50:25 PM · #17
Originally posted by hgpayne:

Originally posted by pitsaman:

People spent money bought equipment, drive car to certain place (gas money) took photos,spent couple of hours digital processing and uploading and I do reward that at least 2-5 points!


So why not make a site recommendation to remove the '1' vote? I mean, 'cause gee, they made some effort -- no one should get a one. But then, the 2 would become the logical one -- oh, we could remove that too -- in fact, let's just remove everything below 5 because gee, we don't want to hurt someone's feelings by possibly giving their photo the score deserves. But wouldn't that then make the 5 the logical one? OK -- just remove ALL the voting links EXCEPT the 10. That way we can all feel warm and fuzzy.

And because voting is such a hassle anyway 'cause I can't vote when only looking at the thumbnails, I want one button on the home page where I click and it votes on all the photos for me. Oh wait... maybe that should be automatic so I don't have to bother visiting the site at all. Yeah... that would work.

Taking my sarcastic hat off...

I like the way the current voting works. Everyone comes up with various rules for their personal way to vote and gives it a good shot. My only recommendation would be to normalize a given person's vote. Some people, for whatever reason, only vote 1, 2, or 3 -- then whine when their photo scores less than a 5. I say whatever a person votes in a challenge should be normalized so that after modification, their entire votes follow a standard bell curve of sorts, with a few 1's and a few 10's, with most votes in the 5 & 6 range.

Actually, what would be really cool would be to use the numbering for an initial pooling of photos, then the ability to sort those based on personal views so that the photos you voted on would be ranked 1 to n, with n being the number of photos voted on, and hopefully equal to the number of photos submitted. This would eliminate the random bias of those that vote 1, 2, or 3 only and those that never vote 1, 2, or 3, and give everyone equal and consistent input into the ranking. Using a balanced binary tree type sort would allow minimal comparisons of photos to interject them into your personal overall sort. You'd be presented with 2 pictures and you'd just have to pick the best one. A couple of clicks as it traversed the tree, and you'd be on to the next photo.

Clearly my head must have been cold after taking off my sarcastic hat -- I seem to have put on my computer geek hat. There must be a 'cool guy' hat in here somewhere....

Lot of of words but ,What did you said anyway?
10/17/2003 06:53:06 PM · #18
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I'm not against the topic based challenge at all.. I just choose not to use it in my voting criteria. I can't figure out a reasonable way to score for meeting the challenge or not. Some photos meet with more strength than others and some dont seem to meet at all. I can't determine a fair and exact way to score for it.

I also get to enjoy the photo much more when I ignore the challenge topics in my vote. Is it or is it not a great photo? That's all I look for.

I do knock off points for off-brief pics. I think that voting fairly for challenge relevance is important for the challenges to remain valid - and it is only fun after all. However, I tend to comment on really good off-brief shots because I'm loathed to simply dismiss them because of that alone - and the points aren't really that important to photography.

So in the end, if people are submitting a shot just to get it noticed then that works, but those who go to any effort for a challenge are rewarded in the way befitting of this site's voting system.
10/17/2003 07:02:21 PM · #19
Originally posted by kostia:

Originally posted by mavrik:

And by the way, whoever started the "nature is not science" thread should be beaten. Just 2 c


The study of nature is a science, but a leaf is not botany, and an insect is not entomology.


Since we're all dictionary.com losers anyways, how about this one:

1. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

Is that science?

If so, could 145 out of 160 voters go revote pls? KTHX.
10/17/2003 07:39:17 PM · #20
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I'm just the opposite. Recently, I have stopped considering the challenge topic when I vote. I vote solely on the merit of the photo itself.


Then what's the point of having topic-based challenges?


I'm not against the topic based challenge at all.. I just choose not to use it in my voting criteria. I can't figure out a reasonable way to score for meeting the challenge or not. Some photos meet with more strength than others and some dont seem to meet at all. I can't determine a fair and exact way to score for it.

I also get to enjoy the photo much more when I ignore the challenge topics in my vote. Is it or is it not a great photo? That's all I look for.


Can't figure out a reasonable way ... ? But then it's down to your interpretation versus someone else's John. And that's fair. As I see it (and we have 10,000 versions of this on the site, no doubt), the best photos in the challenges are those that are both great photographs and great illustrations of the challenge topic. If it were not subject-dependent, we'd all just go out (or stay in) and shoot the same old subjects which we kow we've mastered ... result = v boring submissions, rather like my own more recent stuff (though I have an excuse :-)).

Would you really give a 10 to an Ansell Adams-esque lanscape from the Rockies for an Indoor Macro chllenge?

Ed
10/17/2003 08:27:04 PM · #21
Originally posted by pitsaman:

Lot of of words but ,What did you said anyway?


Reader's Digest Condensed Version for those with limited attention spans:
1. Not voting 1's is stupid -- that's why there's a one there.

2. Current voting methodology works; stop whining.

3. Even given the previous point, Voting could be improved by normalizing each person's voting to a standard bell curve.
4. An ultimate suggestion for voting would be to rank all pictures from 1 (worst) to n (best), then use that ranking merged with everyone else's to really get the order down.

Message edited by author 2003-10-17 20:27:48.
10/17/2003 11:21:47 PM · #22
Originally posted by mavrik:

I've been taking a beating this week for not meeting the challenge. I wonder if my image had a beaker in it, would it be science?

And by the way, whoever started the "nature is not science" thread should be beaten. Just 2 c

M


For what it's worth, Mavrik, I did not give anyone a 1 in the science challenge. As I said, I allow a huge amount of interpretation in the challenge. To get the 'does not meet the challenge' 1, the photographer must have literally looked at the challenge, said "screw it", and submitted something totally different.
10/20/2003 07:23:57 PM · #23
Well I am in the same boat as the initial post on top ! Whats teh point having a challenge based topic picture shooting contest if you just want to go and shoot anything ! Is this wha the 2 founders of the site did !

" I challenge us to shoot a picture of a car this week "

Then the other guy takes a picture of a Donkey ! I mean cmon ...

Anyhow theres been this debate ongoing since I came on the scene here and at the end of it all people will vote how they see fit, were not gonna be able to convert peoples minds to beleive what we say but I know for one that I will submit shots that I think are alot more closley related to what the challenge is all about anyhow ! ;0)

Peace out !
10/20/2003 07:32:17 PM · #24
Originally posted by Palendrone:

Well I am in the same boat as the initial post on top ! Whats teh point having a challenge based topic picture shooting contest if you just want to go and shoot anything ! Is this wha the 2 founders of the site did !

" I challenge us to shoot a picture of a car this week "

Then the other guy takes a picture of a Donkey ! I mean cmon ...



The thing is in certain countries or places you might not see too many cars and a donkey would be that person transportation.

That's why is so difficult for D & L to pick a topic. Like if they did a Christmas challenge not everyone celebrates it. Urban Landscape , not everyone lives near a city. That's why they add that extra details part.

This site is on the WorldWide Web. So everybody could participate.

Message edited by author 2003-10-20 19:33:29.
10/20/2003 07:53:35 PM · #25
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I'm just the opposite. Recently, I have stopped considering the challenge topic when I vote. I vote solely on the merit of the photo itself.


Perhaps what John is saying is that he is assuming that we all have the challenge in mind when we submit and perhaps he/the voters just dont get it.

If that is the case perhaps he is right. Or should a picture speak 1000 words? this is just one way of dealing with the different view points of this site.

Personally I have never given a 1( that I remember ). But i havent seen anything as extreme as .. for example...a bad photograph of a cow in a sealife challenge.

My feeling is that if the picture doesnt "say" it to me it isnt going to score as high WITH ME. Meanwhile if its a good picture of a cow in the sealife challenge it could get a 4.

BTW I dont have any favorites listed either. Does that make me bad or unable to leave comments? I just chose not to pic favorites. If I like it I'll tell you.

Mark
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