WPL Investigation Results - DPChallenge Forums

10/29/2006 06:23:50 PM · #126

Originally posted by Patmania:

I really can not see why you would cheat. How can it possibly be satisfying to win knowing that it was not deserved. Especially as there are no prizes it seems daft.

I hope that you saw what the first post said.

NO RIBBONS WHERE AFFECTED

So where is the cheating part?

10/29/2006 06:24:35 PM · #127

Originally posted by moniepenny:

Everyone keeps stating that you shouldn't vote on someone's photo if you know who the photographer is, but that is not written in the rules. I think it's ignorant to just assume that everyone on this site would just know that automatically.

I personally feel this ban is unfair and that the treatment of these people as if they've gone and murdered someone really shows the downfall of this site.

I used to love being here, now it's always negative. People act as if a photography site needs to be taken as seriously as real life. Lighten up people.

It's not a rule, it's a matter of perception, which as you saw just bit a few probably well-meaning folks in the butt. The perception is that it falls under the category of intentionally altering point totals. To codify something like forbidding people from voting on photos when they know the artist would be completely unenforceable.

10/29/2006 06:26:17 PM · #128

Originally posted by paddles:

Therein lies the problem. If brothers or husbands/wives were voting each others' entries higher and it was discovered, they would no doubt be penalised in the same way. It isn't considered acceptable to vote up your friends' and loved ones' entries just because they are your friends or loved ones

I don't see this in the rules. Call me blind and stupid, but how is that cheating according to the rules?

10/29/2006 06:26:48 PM · #129

Originally posted by Bolti:

Originally posted by Patmania:
I really can not see why you would cheat. How can it possibly be satisfying to win knowing that it was not deserved. Especially as there are no prizes it seems daft.

I hope that you saw what the first post said.

NO RIBBONS WHERE AFFECTED

So where is the cheating part?

What if, as strictly middle-of-the-road photographer, your goal is not to ribbon but to merely crack the top 20? It did appear to move

john white's photo from 6th to 5th. Just because it's not a ribbon doesn't mean it's not a prize to someone, and doesn't mean it should be treated any more lightly.

10/29/2006 06:28:26 PM · #130

Originally posted by Bolti:

Originally posted by paddles:

Therein lies the problem. If brothers or husbands/wives were voting each others' entries higher and it was discovered, they would no doubt be penalised in the same way. It isn't considered acceptable to vote up your friends' and loved ones' entries just because they are your friends or loved ones

I don't see this in the rules. Call me blind and stupid, but how is that cheating according to the rules?

I think the key phrase in the rules is "any attempt". This is a blanket statement that covers any and all methods which you can dream up, including but not limited to buddy voting from relatives, spouses, friends, and their parakeets.

(I really am signing off to study now, I promise.)

10/29/2006 06:28:33 PM · #131

Originally posted by karmabreeze:

Originally posted by Bolti:

Originally posted by Patmania:
I really can not see why you would cheat. How can it possibly be satisfying to win knowing that it was not deserved. Especially as there are no prizes it seems daft.

I hope that you saw what the first post said.

NO RIBBONS WHERE AFFECTED

So where is the cheating part?

What if, as strictly middle-of-the-road photographer, your goal is not to ribbon but to merely crack the top 20? It did appear to move john white's photo from 6th to 5th. Just because it's not a ribbon doesn't mean it's not a prize to someone, and doesn't mean it should be treated any more lightly.

No Ninja Newbie pictures where even close to that picture....

10/29/2006 06:30:20 PM · #132

Originally posted by Bolti:

Originally posted by karmabreeze:

Originally posted by Bolti:

Originally posted by Patmania:
I really can not see why you would cheat. How can it possibly be satisfying to win knowing that it was not deserved. Especially as there are no prizes it seems daft.

I hope that you saw what the first post said.

NO RIBBONS WHERE AFFECTED

So where is the cheating part?

What if, as strictly middle-of-the-road photographer, your goal is not to ribbon but to merely crack the top 20? It did appear to move john white's photo from 6th to 5th. Just because it's not a ribbon doesn't mean it's not a prize to someone, and doesn't mean it should be treated any more lightly.

No Ninja Newbie pictures where even close to that picture....

Why do they have to be close to it for it to be considered cheating? That's my point. The magnitude of the placement is totally irrelevant to the "is it or isn't it" argument.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

10/29/2006 06:35:08 PM · #133

Thats where I think that the problem lies... I and no other person in the group of the banned ones voted in any other way then what we thought was the right way. I didn't vote anyone down. Maybe I voted someone up. But I promise you that I didn't vote anyone down.

TUBORG

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

10/29/2006 06:35:09 PM · #134

I´m allso one of the banned members.
I very seldom vote due lack of time and it really suprised me to see I had been banned from further competitions for giving a high vote to some of my teammates pictures a couple of times.
I usually give high votes to all pictures I like on this page (my average vote cast is more then 5,3) and I´m according to all rules on this page allowed to vote as I please.

If people are going to get punished for breaking a rule there must be a rule to break in the first place!

You cannot make up rules in the middle of something and then punish afterwards.

I know for a fact that most of the teams have outside webpages were the other teammembers can view the pictures in circulation.
And I´m 100% sure that if every team member in all teams where to be checked there would be more suspensions.

I allso think it´s a bad timing to suspend us the day before a new competition starts, you could have done that earlier so the rest of the team could find new members to take part.

I´m not feeling like I´ve broken any rules and I have always given good pictures high scores no matter who took them, and as you can see no ribbons have been affected allthou about 130 votes have been removed.

The team had many top ten finishes in this last round of WPL 2 and they are all still in top ten even after our votes have been removed, that must mean those where good shots and why wouldn´t I be able to give them high votes just like anybody else.

I just think it´s a shame I have to be punished for something most people on this site have been doing from the beginning and you know it!

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 VR DG IF-ED

10/29/2006 06:45:17 PM · #135

This whole thing is closed from my end from now on. I am going to sleep and I hope people understand what I am talking about. I will probably continue voting in my own way, and if that costs me being permanently banned. So be it. I vote according to my heart. Not according to the Site council's unwritten rules.

I state this again. I am not a cheater.

And I hope I will be able to show you that when I continue lining up higher scores. I don't rely on cheating to get high scores. I rely on myself and my friends. Becouse I know I get help shooting some shots. (Scalvert though told me its not allowed to use DPC voting assistants, allthough this is not stated in any rules).

And with DPC Voting assistants I am not talking about people that help me vote on DPC but people that are voters that help me when I am taking photos. Help like holding reflectors and props and so on. - Thank you e301 or for pointing this out to me.

Have a nice day and I hope I will get a message from mr. langdon explaining this.

Message edited by author 2006-10-29 18:57:32.

HBunch

HP PhotoSmart 315

10/29/2006 06:46:10 PM · #136

Originally posted by TUBORG:

I know for a fact that most of the teams have outside webpages were the other teammembers can view the pictures in circulation.
And I´m 100% sure that if every team member in all teams where to be checked there would be more suspensions.

They were checked.

Message edited by author 2006-10-29 18:46:19.

GuGi

Nikon D750

10/29/2006 06:50:16 PM · #137

If I understand this whole business correctly, SC has investigated the matter thoroughly, or so it says at the start of this thread. And doing that they found that a small group gave each other 10's. I interpret it that they are telling us that all WPL teams were looked at, otherwise it would not be a thorough investigation.
Please refrain from putting blame on other teams and thereby on WPL as a whole.

e301

10/29/2006 06:53:26 PM · #138

Originally posted by Bolti:

I don't rely on cheating to get high scores. I rely on myself and my friends.

Originally posted by Bolti:

(Scalvert though told me its not allowed to use DPC voting assistants, allthough this is not stated in any rules).

Is this guy for real?

Bewildering.

But seriously, is it time to think about disconnecting the WPL thing from DPC? Surely it could happily be set up as a parallel thing, rather than piggy-backed onto the same challenges? Then the rest of us wouldn't feel so sidelined by it all ...

e

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

10/29/2006 06:56:38 PM · #139

Originally posted by TUBORG:

If people are going to get punished for breaking a rule there must be a rule to break in the first place!

That would be this one: "Voting patterns are also automatically monitored. Users whose vote patterns suggest an intent to unfairly disrupt the system will have their votes ignored and may be suspended from site functions."

Originally posted by TUBORG:

I´m 100% sure that if every team member in all teams where to be checked there would be more suspensions.

Every member of every team WAS checked. Over 95% of the participants showed no unusual voting patterns. The only votes of 9 or 10 you and Bolti gave out were to your teammates, and you did that on virtually all of their entries (even those that scored below 5). That's only possible if you knew which entries belonged to your teammates, and if you voted on the photographer rather than the photo. You can't honestly claim that all of your teammates deserved a 9 or 10 on every one of their entries throughout the tournament, and nobody else did. THAT demonstrates an intent to unfairly disrupt the system. It's irrelevant that your votes didn't have much of an impact.

Message edited by author 2006-10-29 19:00:00.

hotpasta

Nikon D800

10/29/2006 06:58:39 PM · #140

well done Shannon...stick to your guns on this one.

Elvis_L

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

10/29/2006 06:59:10 PM · #141

Originally posted by e301:

Originally posted by Bolti:
I don't rely on cheating to get high scores. I rely on myself and my friends.

Originally posted by Bolti:
(Scalvert though told me its not allowed to use DPC voting assistants, allthough this is not stated in any rules).

Is this guy for real?

Bewildering.

But seriously, is it time to think about disconnecting the WPL thing from DPC? Surely it could happily be set up as a parallel thing, rather than piggy-backed onto the same challenges? Then the rest of us wouldn't feel so sidelined by it all ...

e

I don't see why. most of these people were freinds and shot togehter and most likely would have done the same thing even if not on a team. at least that is my opinion. they said they didn't think they were doign anything wrong so they would have done it without WPL. there may be others not in WPL doign the same thing may be not. in the end i don't think WPL hurts anyone or anyones score other than maybe some ribbon hogs competing more than they would other wise:)

Message edited by author 2006-10-29 19:02:20.

xXxscarletxXx

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

10/29/2006 06:59:48 PM · #142

Your busted... get over it and move on O.o

Sorry had to have my say

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70 f2.8 L IS

10/29/2006 07:01:29 PM · #143

Originally posted by TUBORG:

I'm very sorry to disagree. We *have* checked 100% of the votes cast by 100% of the team members on other team members' images for 100% of the challenges since the inception of WPL, and found *no* other evidence for team-wide high-voting (or lowballing of others).
As far as the rules, please review the challenge rules, as there is in fact a rule regarding this:
Users whose vote patterns suggest an intent to unfairly disrupt the system will have their votes ignored and may be suspended from site functions. DPChallenge also monitors and enforces a strict policy against fraudulent accounts and 'ghost' ballots. Any attempts to alter the point totals in any way for any photograph will result in immediate loss of account and a ban from the site. Photographs by any participating parties may also be removed from past or current challenges.
We will continue to monitor voting as required to make DPC a fair, level playing field. Rest assured, the above rule will be enforced.

alanfreed

Nikon D6

10/29/2006 07:05:22 PM · #144

I don't normally chime in on this kind of thing, but this activity makes me sick and disgusted. I'd like those of you who were banned to put your computer screen right up to your ears, and listen very carefully:

IF YOU ARE ALLOWING YOUR VOTE TO BE INFLUENCED BECAUSE YOU KNOW WHO TOOK THE PICTURE, THEN YES, YOU ARE CHEATING.

You're cheating the entire DPC community with this kind of crap, and it baffles me to see you guys denying that there's anything wrong with it.

No, there are no cash prizes being handed out here (imagine how much worse this kind of thing would be if there were!), but people still enter contests with an expectation of integrity in this site.

Langdon and several SC members went to great lengths to investigate allegations that this kind of thing was going on, and they have proven it beyond a reasonable doubt that vote swaying has indeed been a problem with select users.

Simply put, there is no excuse for this kind of activity. If you're going to participate and vote here, do it fairly or accept the consequences.

scaramanga

Canon PowerShot A95

10/29/2006 07:15:24 PM · #145

Tuborg, Brin, Bolti: I trust you when you say you didn't want to cheat. But this is not the problem. The problem is you voted on shots you know and that one could assume that you intended to cheat. If you are going masked into a bank you can get arrested even if you don't want to start a robbery. You know what I mean?

When you give tips to improve the shots of your teammates and he/she does what you suggest, the shot becomes more and more "your" work. It's getting closer to what you want it to look like. If you vote on this shot it's a bit like voting on your own - and normally, if you are happy with your shot, you would give it a "10". So I think it's impossible to give tips on shots and then vote on it like if you haven't seen it before.

Now you got banned for one month from DPC. I think this is a warning, you can deal with it. By December you can participate in all challenges again and no one will talk about this incident any more. If I were you I would stay cool and keep your countenance :) The judge was given and you can't do anything about it.

I think the great majority don't think of you as cheaters and like you as great photographers - prove them right :)

pineapple

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

10/29/2006 07:17:42 PM · #146

I have to say that I respect your work Shannon for this investigation and the considerable trouble you are taking in the follow up. As Hotpasta said, stick to your guns. And thank you.

neophyte

Nikon D810

10/29/2006 07:24:46 PM · #147

Originally posted by alanfreed:

listen very carefully:

IF YOU ARE ALLOWING YOUR VOTE TO BE INFLUENCED BECAUSE YOU KNOW WHO TOOK THE PICTURE, THEN YES, YOU ARE CHEATING.

Langdon and several SC members went to great lengths to investigate allegations that this kind of thing was going on, and they have proven it beyond a reasonable doubt that vote swaying has indeed been a problem with select users.

Simply put, there is no excuse for this kind of activity. If you're going to participate and vote here, do it fairly or accept the consequences.

Thank you. One should mention the time and energy that has to be wasted to investigate this instead of persuing ways to improve the sight. The only response I'll accept is "I'm sorry. I'm Embarrassed and I won't let it happen again." Thank you to southern gentleman too for taking this in the serious manner it should be.

David Ey