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10/17/2006 10:32:37 PM · #1
Here are a couple of things I've noticed regarding voting. Not sure if Im disappointed about it. I guess its just how it is here and I should accept it.

Observation 1.
Challenge descriptions have very little impact on voting. As an example the Electricity challenge. The description was "...how electricity effects the environment in a good or bad way...". There are about 2 in the top 20 that do NOT meet the challenge regarding the environment. So how do these entries do so well? I think many voters only use the challenge title.

Observation 2.
An entry must meet the challenge(title) in a very direct and simplistic manner. If a 4 year old looks at your photo and cant relate it to the challenge title, so will many of the voters.

Observation 3.
Artistic merit doesnt count for much here. I suppose this is a good thing. I've learnt heaps from this site in terms of photography 'technique'. Now I can apply the good technique to my art.

I think the first two observations show that the majority of voters here are a bit... well I wont say it, but its not flattering. None the less, I've learnt heaps here had lots of fun and plan to stay for a long time yet.
10/17/2006 10:38:02 PM · #2
Originally posted by carlo:

Observation 2.
An entry must meet the challenge(title) in a very direct and simplistic manner. If a 4 year old looks at your photo and cant relate it to the challenge title, so will many of the voters.


sickening but kinda true sometimes, LOL!
10/25/2006 07:29:25 AM · #3
If a photo doesn't meet the challenge criteria (the way I see it), then it will have a very hard chance of getting anything better than a 5 vote from me.
10/26/2006 10:10:04 PM · #4
I must agree with Carlo.
I am new to the site, but the few scores that I have experienced and seen other people get seem unsually low.

I would have to say that if the picture meets the challenge criteria it should get at least a 5. I have not seen that at all.

oh well... I think I'm here more for the comments than for the votes !
10/26/2006 11:13:47 PM · #5
Originally posted by deacueducto:

I must agree with Carlo.
I am new to the site, but the few scores that I have experienced and seen other people get seem unsually low.

Agreed... That is why I vote different now... I use a Modified Curve...

Modified Curve

I'm trying to imitate librodo in voting. A strong argument could be made that he is best photographer on this site; yet his average score received is LOWER than his average score given. I think he knows more about scoring that the rest of us. After all, librodo is a teacher.

In the educational world "7" out of "10" would be considered "C" level work. Therefore, I now try to give the the average DPC submission a "7". Good entries get a "10", bad ones get a "1". I use the whole scale.

It is 'modified' because I will vary scoring based on the conditions of the particualar challenge. For example; if the entries in say, a Free Study, are above average by DPC standards then I will grade them higher as a group.

Since I view this site as primarily teaching the basics of photography I give more weight to the photographic merit of the image than I do the very subjective category of 'meeting the challenge'. You have to learn to walk before you can learn to fly. I assume everyone is trying to meet the challenge in their 'assignment'.

Message edited by author 2006-10-26 23:17:41.
10/26/2006 11:55:37 PM · #6
Originally posted by stdavidson:



In the educational world "7" out of "10" would be considered "C" level work. Therefore, I now try to give the the average DPC submission a "7". Good entries get a "10", bad ones get a "1". I use the whole scale.

It is 'modified' because I will vary scoring based on the conditions of the particualar challenge. For example; if the entries in say, a Free Study, are above average by DPC standards then I will grade them higher as a group.


That's funny, I've been working myself up to the 7 mid-range for a while now without thinking about why. I think my average is still closer to 6 though.
10/27/2006 12:01:22 AM · #7
I don't know if anyone remembers, but last December my New Year's Resolution was to not vote a single '5' in 2006. I declared that I would not sit on the fence; an image is either worth considering and scoring well or it's absolute crap so my voting score for almost a year has been 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. I find that most images rate in my 6-7 range, DNMC gets a 4 and the good shots are either great, amazing or OMG I LOVE YOU.

Edit typo

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 00:02:18.
10/27/2006 12:03:06 AM · #8
Originally posted by wavelength:

That's funny, I've been working myself up to the 7 mid-range for a while now without thinking about why. I think my average is still closer to 6 though.

My average score given has got a LONG way to go, but that is because I voted lower for such a long time.

Originally posted by idnic:

.... the good shots are either great, amazing or OMG I LOVE YOU.

I live for the day one of my pictures gets a "OMG I LOVE YOU" rating from you.

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 00:06:19.
10/27/2006 02:09:24 AM · #9
Originally posted by idnic:

I find that most images rate in my 6-7 range, DNMC gets a 4 and the good shots are either great, amazing or OMG I LOVE YOU.

Edit typo


Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww....she hates me!!
10/27/2006 09:46:48 AM · #10
Originally posted by Judi:

Originally posted by idnic:

I find that most images rate in my 6-7 range, DNMC gets a 4 and the good shots are either great, amazing or OMG I LOVE YOU.

Edit typo


Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww....she hates me!!


Whu?? nooooooooooooo never, Judi! :)
10/27/2006 09:51:20 AM · #11
Originally posted by idnic:

I find that most images rate in my 6-7 range, DNMC gets a 4 and the good shots are either great, amazing or OMG I LOVE YOU.
And there's the 1's that she reserves for my shots. Thanks for making me special, cindi. Of course, at first I thought they were because she thought they were #1. Now, I know better.
10/27/2006 09:54:22 AM · #12
Originally posted by cryingdragon:

Originally posted by idnic:

I find that most images rate in my 6-7 range, DNMC gets a 4 and the good shots are either great, amazing or OMG I LOVE YOU.
And there's the 1's that she reserves for my shots. Thanks for making me special, cindi. Of course, at first I thought they were because she thought they were #1. Now, I know better.


You are #1 in my book, Mike! :D
10/27/2006 10:11:16 AM · #13
Originally posted by stdavidson:

I'm trying to imitate librodo in voting. A strong argument could be made that he is best photographer on this site; yet his average score received is LOWER than his average score given. I think he knows more about scoring that the rest of us. After all, librodo is a teacher.


Your would be very wrong to read anything into Mr. Davidson's words above. Check Librodo's voting record. He votes on VERY VERY FEW entries:

Challenges Entered: 111
Votes Cast: 1907

I vote on every single entry in a challenge, if I vote for that challenge. And I believe that many others do the same if they have the time. Clearly, Librodo cherry picks for whatever reason and hence has a "generous" looking record when it comes to the actual vote he has given. But that is not based on, say, 20,000 votes.
10/27/2006 10:32:19 AM · #14
Originally posted by pineapple:

You would be very wrong to read anything into Mr. Davidson's words above... Clearly, Librodo cherry picks for whatever reason...

Quite frankly, I'm surprised you'd make such an accusation.

But if you don't like the Librodo example then try kiwiness.
10/27/2006 10:33:17 AM · #15
That was a factual post backed up with data. Perhaps you are the one who does not like it??
10/27/2006 11:19:13 AM · #16
Originally posted by stdavidson:


In the educational world "7" out of "10" would be considered "C" level work. Therefore, I now try to give the the average DPC submission a "7". Good entries get a "10", bad ones get a "1". I use the whole scale.


First let me state "I will not presume to tell someone how to vote" We all vote with our own bias. I think that's great because it brings in all different views.

However...

If you look at our overall averages using the educational scale would indicate that most of us are failing? Even Librodo (Who is extremely talented) is only ~6.4. Wow I'm a real failure at ~5.3 soon I'll be sent to remedial training :-)

You're entitiled to your own style and I'll defend your right to use it but I think you're bucking the system which If I remember from other posts has fairly consistantly produced normally distributed averages in the 5.4-5.5 range? You're also limiting yourself to a smaller range to vote with.

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 11:40:23.
10/27/2006 11:25:17 AM · #17
Originally posted by pineapple:

That was a factual post backed up with data. Perhaps you are the one who does not like it??


How can that be factual? It's just based on your assumption that because he hasn't given many votes, he goes around cherry picking.

My own voting has a similar pattern - lots of challenges entered, many, many votes received, few votes given out. I am plain lazy, and don't vote on very many challenges. When I do, I usually try to vote on a large number (or all) in the challenge, and I don't cherry pick, I vote on whatever comes up.

One thing I'm pretty sure of is that Manny doesn't have a fast internet connection. Voting, for him, would be a lot more work than for me. Personally I think he's just a very generous man. I wish I were that generous.

BTW, I think that people like him, who are both very talented and generous, are the best kind to have around. For one, they don't feel threatened and are always willing to share - I read somewhere recently (in a magazine I think) that the best photographers are never cagy about sharing how they do stuff, which is different than the topic of this thread, but IMO goes hand in hand with the higher than normal votes than people like Manny give out.

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 11:33:12.
10/27/2006 11:39:15 AM · #18
Originally posted by carlo:

Here are a couple of things I've noticed regarding voting. Not sure if Im disappointed about it. I guess its just how it is here and I should accept it.

Observation 1.
Challenge descriptions have very little impact on voting. As an example the Electricity challenge. The description was "...how electricity effects the environment in a good or bad way...". There are about 2 in the top 20 that do NOT meet the challenge regarding the environment. So how do these entries do so well? I think many voters only use the challenge title.


I think the morning challenge is even worse. The description talks about what morning means to you. In my opinion, only 2 out of the top 10 actually meet the challenge description. Don't get me wrong, the others are really good pictures, but voters are very forgiving for good pictures that DNMC. If your pictures is average and DNMC, you get hammered.

I certainly don't blame the people entering pictures; If I had one like that I would have entered it also to get a good score.
10/27/2006 11:42:23 AM · #19
Ursula, Clearly you are an uncritical fan of certain people at DPC. So be it. I have nothing against Librodo or anyone else here. Your speak of being generous. Well, I believe the most generous people here are the ones who are dedicated enough to vote on many challenges and to vote on 100% of those challenges as well as to give out comments. There are people far more generous (including may I say stdavidson). One would hope that is the type of participant it is your duty to encourage.
10/27/2006 11:44:26 AM · #20
Originally posted by pineapple:

Ursula, Clearly you are an uncritical fan of certain people at DPC. So be it. I have nothing against Librodo or anyone else here. Your speak of being generous. Well, I believe the most generous people here are the ones who are dedicated enough to vote on many challenges and to vote on 100% of those challenges as well as to give out comments. There are people far more generous (including may I say stdavidson). One would hope that is the type of participant it is your duty to encourage.


OK. Remember though that some users do not have the fast connections we have in North America, and voting for them is a lot more work than for you or I.

And yes, I am a fan of Manny's. And I have no reason to be critical of him or what he does and how he does it. Generosity comes in various colours, like most other things; it's not just one thing that a person does.

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 11:47:31.
10/27/2006 11:54:57 AM · #21
Originally posted by DJWoodward:

Originally posted by stdavidson:


In the educational world "7" out of "10" would be considered "C" level work. Therefore, I now try to give the the average DPC submission a "7". Good entries get a "10", bad ones get a "1". I use the whole scale.

If you look at our overall averages using the educational scale would indicate that most of us are failing? Even Librodo (Who is extremely talented) is only ~6.4. Wow I'm a real failure at ~5.3 soon I'll be sent to remedial training

You EXACTLY understand my reasoning for changing the way I vote. Numerically speaking we tell everyone, including the great ones, that they are failures as photographers. That is what bums people out here. Once you get past the top placers it is the number that has the greater impact on people then their finishing placement.

I find it sad that I'm accused of "bucking the trend" for giving images decent scores. I'll buck that trend any day.

I actually vote harsh. If I followed the official site guideline of giving a "good" image a 10 I'd have to give more than half the submissions 10s every challenge.

As far as limiting myself, I find there is still plenty of room at the top to distinguish the best images from the others.
10/27/2006 12:06:51 PM · #22
Originally posted by pineapple:

I believe the most generous people here are the ones who are dedicated enough to vote on many challenges and to vote on 100% of those challenges as well as to give out comments.


Well, I guess I'm generous because I either vote in 100% of a challenge or not at all, but my DNMC scale is very harsh (generally give 1's if it is what I consider a blatent attempt at not meeting the challenge) so that tanked my avg score given early on and I'm trying to be a little more generous by allowing a DNMC to slightly better if it has good technical merit.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is, I think I'm fair (sometimes generous), but my avg score given would say otherwise to many.

Ultimately it's a challenge & competition and if one doesn't play by the 'rules' (referring to my interpretation of Challenge Criteria) then they will be penalized. No need to go off on the DNMC subject as I've been beating it like a dead horse lately.

Edit: Ursula -- very good point on bandwidth/access issues to the site and one that is often easily discounted since many of us have access the broadband. 440 images in the Bokeh challenge is a lot to vote on if you have a slow connection. It was a lot to vote on with a super fast connection.

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 12:09:49.
10/27/2006 12:11:48 PM · #23
Steve,

Please don't take my words as an acusation. It's not meant that way.

I just meant that your system is out of the norm and unless a large number of voters use the same system it will have little effect. I'm also not asking you to be a conformist. As I said I defend your right to use whatever system works for you!

The reality is that in this community a score of 5.5 is equivalent to the C in the educational model. I'm Ok with that. I joked about my 5.3 average being remedial. Actually I proud of that. I've only been here a short time, I have plenty of room to grow, but I think my average of 5.3 is pretty good for a beginner. I'm not discourage by that number at all because I know it pretty close to norm in this community.

Sorry if any offence was taken.

Actually my average is 5.4. See I'm getting better already :-)

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 21:18:35.
10/27/2006 12:12:14 PM · #24
I'd like to thank StDavidson for the quality of his comments. I'd prefer more comments like his and a score of 5 given than get a "drive-by" 6 with no explanation as to what could have been improved.

Now if people could just tell me why I get all those darn 4's :( or better yet, How NOT to keep getting them. :)

note: I have no idea if he rated mine a 3-5-7-9 or whatever, just wanted to put some emphasis on placing comments with scores.

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 12:13:21.
10/27/2006 12:27:29 PM · #25
Originally posted by mad_brewer:

I think the morning challenge is even worse. The description talks about what morning means to you. In my opinion, only 2 out of the top 10 actually meet the challenge description. Don't get me wrong, the others are really good pictures, but voters are very forgiving for good pictures that DNMC. If your pictures is average and DNMC, you get hammered.

I certainly don't blame the people entering pictures; If I had one like that I would have entered it also to get a good score.


I didn't enter morning, but the challenge didn't necessarily say what every morning means to you. If I idealize a good morning I think of one of two things. 1) shooting at sunrise on the Oregon Coast on a weekday (so I'm the only soul in Ecola) or 2) rowing crew on a glass smooth lake in the fog listening to the bubbles under the hull on the swing of the stroke. Now I only rowed one year and I don't get to shoot at Ecola every morning, but they certainly represent what mornings can mean to me...

So I would think it would be very hard to DNMC a challenge where you are allowed personal interpretation...
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