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10/08/2003 09:53:37 AM · #1
I'd like to thanks whoever it was who started taking the time to break down their votes. I've decided to use a similar scheme on this challenge. I give each pic a mark out of 4 for visual impact, a mark out of 3 for technical excellence and a mark out of 3 for meeting the challenge. I leave that info in the "comments" so they know why they got the score they did. It takes a bit more time, but I think it's better to do 20% this way than to vote on all of them but not take the time to examine each one carefully according to its' merits.

What do you folks think?
10/08/2003 10:23:45 AM · #2
its a good way to do it -
at leats in letting the photographer know why they received the score they did.

how do you choose the 20% your going to vote on though...

i would personally like to pick the top 20% in my mind and vote on
those only - but that is difficult with the random aspect of the voting.

soup

Message edited by author 2003-10-08 10:24:13.
10/08/2003 10:31:28 AM · #3
I agree soup - I just take them as they come, and do 20% the first day of voting. As time permits I will vote on more during the week and hopefully get to all of them
10/08/2003 11:48:41 AM · #4
I have today voted on all of the entries and for those that got less than 3 I would prefer not to vote. I guess to view the thumbnails before choosing would be best. I liked your marks out of 4, 3 and 3 as it at least gives an indication of where I need to brush up.
10/08/2003 11:54:14 AM · #5
The reason I find it harder to comment on those I did not like or get, is because I don't want to find the person upset with me for being blunt. So I try to remember to say something positive or at least make the critism helpful in what could have been done differently. I find these sorts of comments are the most useful to me. I also really like receive the broken down scores since it give me more feedback even if it is just general.

I try to comment on a large proportion of the shots. I figure if I can keep the number of comments I have made that people voted useful, higher then the total number of comments I have recieved I am contributing to the site.
10/08/2003 12:06:23 PM · #6
I don't like the mathematical "breakdown" comments at all, and I wish they'd go away.

I don't like any comments that tell me what the vote was. That's not what comments are for; that's what the voting buttons are for. Comments are for text. Language. Prose. Opinion. Not numbers.

Sometimes I do put my vote in the comment, but only when I feel it's necessary because I've said something negative and I want to reassure the person. It's a defense mechanism to guard against those oversensitive types who send commenters private messages during the challenge defending against what they see as insults.

Comments should be human and personal. If you can't say something constructive or specific -- and "1/4 visual appeal, 2/3 execution, 3/3 challenge = 6" is NONE of those things -- then keep your comments to yourself. I don't care why you voted the way you did if you can't even bring yourself to put it into words.
10/08/2003 12:11:38 PM · #7
Originally posted by kostia:

I don't like the mathematical "breakdown" comments at all, and I wish they'd go away.

I don't like any comments that tell me what the vote was. That's not what comments are for; that's what the voting buttons are for. Comments are for text. Language. Prose. Opinion. Not numbers.

Sometimes I do put my vote in the comment, but only when I feel it's necessary because I've said something negative and I want to reassure the person. It's a defense mechanism to guard against those oversensitive types who send commenters private messages during the challenge defending against what they see as insults.

Comments should be human and personal. If you can't say something constructive or specific -- and "1/4 visual appeal, 2/3 execution, 3/3 challenge = 6" is NONE of those things -- then keep your comments to yourself. I don't care why you voted the way you did if you can't even bring yourself to put it into words.


I completely agree... I'd rather people put detailed comments on a few pictures rather than a score on many. I have to say that several scores broken down by category are better than just one score, but I find them impersonal, and not in any way helpful.

Message edited by author 2003-10-08 12:12:02.
10/08/2003 01:03:45 PM · #8
I'm surprised that kostia and bobster find this system, well, not only not helpful but downright annoying. However many did say they like it, so I'd really like to hear from a few more before deciding to give it up entirely.

In terms of the feedback I receive, I would prefer a breakdown to a simple number, so that I know where the voter feels the most improvement is required.

I can't help that the "comments" box is the only possible place to provide a breakdown, but if a few more tell me that they hate this approach I will abandon it.

Of course words are best of all in the comments section, and I have to say that I find criticism to be much more helpful than bland praise. I guess everyone is different that way.
10/08/2003 01:11:34 PM · #9
I hope you don't abandon this approach... Not because I love it, but because it's a comment. Those that complain that they don't like the way you comment will complain they don't have enough comments once you stop.

Vote and comment anyway that makes sense to you and let the photographer give whatever creedence they decide to it...
10/08/2003 01:14:13 PM · #10
I guess I agree Myqyl - I've received 70 votes so far and 1 comment, so besides the fact that I have not stirred any deep emotions in people with my photo, this tells me that most people are not bothering to comment at all.
10/08/2003 01:41:37 PM · #11
Have to say I agree with myqyl and stevenayer too. Even just numbers can help you improve.
10/08/2003 01:45:48 PM · #12
Watching my voting score go up and down all over the place I've been wondering something.

Do you vote only on the merits of the image you are looking at, or do you also take in account the photos you've seen before (whether in the thumbnail or ones already voted on)?

I try to just vote on the actual photo I see before me, but it can be difficult not comparing them to previous ones, whether for the better or worse. With this mindset I'm thinking I probably should've tried to do a nightshot. ;)
10/08/2003 01:56:33 PM · #13
This is how I vote:

I go through all the pictures (high speed connection, stay at home mom) the first night of the challenge and vote on gut instinct of "Did it meet the challenge and does it appeal to me?" I spend about 15-20 seconds on each picture.

Then over the course of the week I start with the ones I scored the lowest and go back and try to see what it was that either put me off or caused me to have an initial bad reaction to it. I take the time to really access the picture and it's core. If it's an excellent picture but did not meet the challenge in my mind it will receive an average score. It if does neither, it's score will remain the same. I never lower scores only raise them if I find something the second time around that I missed the first time.

I work my way up the scale of how I score the pictures until I have only one or 2 10's in the bunch, usually several 9's and 8's and the rest will be less. I, fortunately have the time to be able to go back a rethink my initial reactions and also leave comments when something really throws me off or doesn't seem quite right to me.

I have noticed most of the scoring depends on sharpness of the image and clarity and that is fine but sometimes that little bit of noise or just out of focus shot is also a winner in my book. It all really depends on personal perference.

Deannda
10/08/2003 02:04:21 PM · #14
I think I am the one that started this breakout scoring last challenge with mixed results, but the bottom line is, most people liked it. Looking at each image and trying to score it using my methodology has made me better at rating each photo individually and not just comparing it to the previous 4 or 5 photos I remember seeing. I have received a few such comments from others who have adopted a style of their own following my lead, and I personally appreciate the time to break out the merits and issues found in each image.

Due to the whining last time though, I've tried to include a few words as to why I scored as I did, and also try to find at least one thing good about the photo I can comment on. All this takes A LOT of effort and explains why I haven't even reached my requisite 20% voting yet. I don't know if I can make it through 288 photos and give a detailed comment on each one, but I'll do my best to get to most of them.

As for those that don't want such comments -- what kind of comment are you looking for? "Nice photo -- keep up the good work." "Good catch." "I like the way you did that." Maybe these make you feel good, but do they really help you improve your photography? That's why I come here. I want to see what other photographers, beginning to advanced, think about my photos. The more comments the better. I don't want to discourage ANYONE from making whatever comment they can -- I appreciate everyone and try to understand why they said what they did. It is MUCH more helpful than seeing my photo got 4 1's, 6 2's, ... 2 10's... with NOTHING to back up why the people who gave me a 1 did so nor why the person who gave me a 10 did so.

But that's just me.
10/08/2003 02:19:27 PM · #15
Originally posted by hgpayne:

As for those that don't want such comments -- what kind of comment are you looking for? "Nice photo -- keep up the good work." "Good catch." "I like the way you did that." Maybe these make you feel good, but do they really help you improve your photography? That's why I come here. I want to see what other photographers, beginning to advanced, think about my photos. The more comments the better. I don't want to discourage ANYONE from making whatever comment they can -- I appreciate everyone and try to understand why they said what they did. It is MUCH more helpful than seeing my photo got 4 1's, 6 2's, ... 2 10's... with NOTHING to back up why the people who gave me a 1 did so nor why the person who gave me a 10 did so.


"Good catch": not helpful.
"Nice job": not helpful.
"This sucks": not helpful.
"visual appeal 1/4, technique 2/3, challenge 3/3": not helpful.

The numeric "comments" do not contain any reasoning, opinions, or backup. They're lazy. Why is it harder to type "sky is too blown out" than it is to type "visual appeal 1/4"?

I, too, am here in large part to improve my photography and learn from other photographers. I don't want stupid "yay, go you" comments any more than I want stupid "6 out of 10" comments. I want WORDS. Numbers do not tell me what anyone thinks. They tell me the person couldn't be bothered to express his or her opinion and took a shortcut instead.

I do not mark these numeric comments helpful and never will. The comments I consider helpful are the ones that show me the person a) looked at the picture, b) formed an opinion, and c) is able to express that opinion and part of the reasoning behind it through the use of language.
10/08/2003 02:23:46 PM · #16
So, Kostia, how many photos do you vote on and how many do you comment on?
10/08/2003 02:28:53 PM · #17
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:

Originally posted by kostia:

I don't like the mathematical "breakdown" comments at all, and I wish they'd go away.

I don't like any comments that tell me what the vote was. That's not what comments are for; that's what the voting buttons are for. Comments are for text. Language. Prose. Opinion. Not numbers.

Sometimes I do put my vote in the comment, but only when I feel it's necessary because I've said something negative and I want to reassure the person. It's a defense mechanism to guard against those oversensitive types who send commenters private messages during the challenge defending against what they see as insults.

Comments should be human and personal. If you can't say something constructive or specific -- and "1/4 visual appeal, 2/3 execution, 3/3 challenge = 6" is NONE of those things -- then keep your comments to yourself. I don't care why you voted the way you did if you can't even bring yourself to put it into words.


I completely agree... I'd rather people put detailed comments on a few pictures rather than a score on many. I have to say that several scores broken down by category are better than just one score, but I find them impersonal, and not in any way helpful.


I feel with kostia and Bob. What most people like, remains a mere statistical evaluation with no bearing on actual value and usefulness. I accept it, because I have to, is all.
10/08/2003 02:30:51 PM · #18
Originally posted by stevenayer:

So, Kostia, how many photos do you vote on and how many do you comment on?


I vote on every single photo. A recent exception is the Irony challenge, where I only voted on the ones that weren't pictures of irons or other pointless crap. I comment on about 15%. The vast majority of my comments are lengthy and detailed. Thanks for asking.
10/08/2003 02:40:35 PM · #19
Hmmm - I refrained from posting a comment earlier which faulted you for being a bit brusque, Kostia, but I think it's growing on me.
I notice that some people comment in language that I, a rank beginner, don't speak. They express opinions on aspects of the photo of which I am blissfully unaware.
I'm thinking the numeric breakdown is a useful way for the visually inarticulate to say more than "6". Perhaps I will comment more wordily in future as a result of your opinions, but I'm rather afraid that rather than gratifying the photographer I may end up only displaying my own ignorance.
10/08/2003 02:40:52 PM · #20
Originally posted by kostia:



"Good catch": not helpful.
"Nice job": not helpful.
"This sucks": not helpful.
"visual appeal 1/4, technique 2/3, challenge 3/3": not helpful.

The numeric "comments" do not contain any reasoning, opinions, or backup. They're lazy. Why is it harder to type "sky is too blown out" than it is to type "visual appeal 1/4"?

I, too, am here in large part to improve my photography and learn from other photographers. I don't want stupid "yay, go you" comments any more than I want stupid "6 out of 10" comments. I want WORDS. Numbers do not tell me what anyone thinks. They tell me the person couldn't be bothered to express his or her opinion and took a shortcut instead.

I do not mark these numeric comments helpful and never will. The comments I consider helpful are the ones that show me the person a) looked at the picture, b) formed an opinion, and c) is able to express that opinion and part of the reasoning behind it through the use of language.


I totally agree!
10/08/2003 02:46:27 PM · #21
Myself, I will take any comment, since any comment even nice job. Tells me someone took the moment out of their day to make a comment. It does not tell me much, only that someone enjoyed the picture enough to make a comment. I much prefer getting a numbered analisis from a generic comment because then if I have a question, I can always email and just ASK. I have found that most people who I have emailed about their comments have been very willing to answer me. I understand why they can't do it for 250+ people, but if you show interest in their oppinion they are more then willing to expand. It is great if someone has the time to give me more feedback. The more the better for they have the chance to work through what works for them (which improves their pictures) and to tell me my general flaws (like I tend to crop closer then the general public here likes). A simple number might not tell me that, but knowing he is someone will too look and comment on my picture means I can ask him(her).

My personal goal is to have more people find my comments useful then total comments I have recieved. I figure if I can do that I am adding to the site in thanks for the improvement to my photography.

I personally really encourage people to use email because the fact that someone took the time to vote and make a comment means they had something to say, and are willing to help. I love meeting people willing to help my photography and thank them one and all.
10/08/2003 02:51:25 PM · #22
Originally posted by stevenayer:

Hmmm - I refrained from posting a comment earlier which faulted you for being a bit brusque, Kostia, but I think it's growing on me.
I notice that some people comment in language that I, a rank beginner, don't speak. They express opinions on aspects of the photo of which I am blissfully unaware.
I'm thinking the numeric breakdown is a useful way for the visually inarticulate to say more than "6". Perhaps I will comment more wordily in future as a result of your opinions, but I'm rather afraid that rather than gratifying the photographer I may end up only displaying my own ignorance.


When I am aware of my ignorance, I know, at least, something others may not. I now know that restricting my comments to only that which I do know may touch a fact or two.
10/08/2003 02:53:45 PM · #23
Originally posted by kostia:

"visual appeal 1/4, technique 2/3, challenge 3/3": not helpful.

I respectfully (and cautiously) disagree... That comment tells me that the vote I got was based on a lack of visual appeal and not on missing the challenge.

The least helpful comment of all is the one that doesn't get made... I think ANY comment is more useful and helpful then no comment... I have gotten comments of "boring" and "?" that I have marked as helpful, but I've never been helped by a comment I never got.
10/08/2003 02:57:10 PM · #24
I saw a lot of comments like this in the irony challenge
Comment:
base 1: 1/1; challenge: 0/3; technical: 1/3; aesthetics: 0/3; total: 2
This comment is not telling you whats wrong with the picture I just think its rude
10/08/2003 03:37:11 PM · #25
Originally posted by stevenayer:

...
I notice that some people comment in language that I, a rank beginner, don't speak. They express opinions on aspects of the photo of which I am blissfully unaware.


Photography does have a lot of specialized technical and artistic terms that people who pursue the art eventually learn to understand. Using them saves time, but it does create a learning curve. But most people here love to help. If you don't understand the language in a comment (whether on your photo or someone else's), feel free to ask. You can send the commenter an email, or perhaps faster post your question in the Q & A forum.
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