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DPChallenge Forums >> The Critique Club >> John Setzler, and what the Critique Club is for.
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10/14/2006 01:30:41 AM · #76
I have to agree with jimsetzler, DrAchoo and others who ask for some information to be provided before leaving a critique. If you are requesting a critique I don't see how you can get the most out of your critique if you don't help the critic out. The work here is so diverse as is the intentions of the photographer. How is the critic suppose to know what he/she wants out of the critique?
10/14/2006 01:37:11 AM · #77
I love receiving comments... event just a "Great colors". At least it tells me that my picture was worth enough for somebody to take times to look at it and to tell me that they like it (or didn't like). But after reading this tread, I decided that I will no longer request critique from the CC.

Also, recently, I started leaving a lot more comments on pictures, I rarely go into the technical part of it, and reading this tread, I'm wondering if I should also stop leaving comments.


10/14/2006 02:38:03 AM · #78
Originally posted by C_Steve_G:


...but seriously, this thread has brought to the fore another aspect of photography that I had spent little time considering; that is, the emotional appeal of my photos, to me and to the viewers, and additionally, "Why did I take this photo?"
I'm glad that Ed brought this up, and that John remained to state his thoughts.

I may never "get it" but I can look at the images from a different point, now. I'm sure I'll learn more, and try more.

Thanks for everyone's contributions.


I found and joined DPC in December 2003. I believe that I'm a better person for having done so as DPC has had a positive influence on my life. When I distill the comments above that I agree with and those that I don't, I find a balance that is key to the education and entertainment the site provides. It transcends the bounds of the CC and the comments I've read and left. There are people that I added to my favorites just to quickly find and view their comments on entries of others in a particular challenge. It's been an excellent way for me to get feedback from the people who's opinion I value on photographs, other than mine, yet consider meaningful and stimulating. It's made all the better when I read the comments of others that are just as valid and add to the mix. I make an attempt to leave a comment on any picture that 'moves' me... the disclaimer here is that I endeavored to convey any of the many aspects that came to mind ~ humor, pathos, disgust, awe, technical or off the wall. Needles to say, they are not all marked as helpful yet more often than not they are. Many of you commenting on this thread have commented on my photos and regardless of what you wrote I appreciated it. If nothing else I'll provide more than the EXIF & post processing information. My average score proves that I've fooled too many (myself included) with my entries... they just didn't see what I was trying / wanted to show.
10/14/2006 02:55:30 AM · #79
As a member of the Critique Club I have a wish list too...

If I see a photo with no photographer's comments, how can I respond to what (s)he meant to say. A quick not about what you are trying to communicate would help a lot.

Years ago I had an assignment to submit a photo showing repetition. So I chose our local group mail box. Then I decided it would look better with the door open. Since the mail box was brushed aluminum, and the interior was also gray, I felt it needed some color. So I put one of my son's little leggo men inside. I got the brilliant idea that it would be a little bit funny if he was waving, so I raised his little curved leggo arm. The result, an award for my wonderful photo about how corporate america was trying to make everyone uniform and my little leggo man was raising his fist in defiance.

I never imagined that message, let alone did I send it. To paraphrase Freud, sometimes a leggo man is just a leggo man.

Since that time I do not presume to read any message into the work of another. If you want to ask me if I understood what you meant to say, ask. I am not going to try to guess.

I will tell you what I like, what I think could be better, and since you _DID_ enter it in a competition, I am likely to suggest ways to get a better score. If you want something more, you need to ask.

There are very few people critquing photos. Want to see a better job done, I suggest you pitch in and help do it.... Oh, and keep doing it over and over. Because there are plenty of people out there that never get to the front of the line.
10/14/2006 03:33:17 AM · #80
A Challenge is a Critique in it's own venue, by means of trial by fire - the voting masses, their 2-second look, and ranking it by their first impression by means of a number, occasionally with a comment should a voter be so inclined.
But.
What if someone wants something deeper regarding their image and wants a 2-minute study of it, a deeper look and some feedback in the way of pros & cons of what worked and what didn't work - the check box is born.

For those that do want someone's valuable time in the way of a citique, not a 10-second look, vote and "great shot" in the comment section, what is wrong with the photographer having some input as to why they chose that image, why they post-processed it that way, what moved them enough to submit the shot, why it's cropped the way it is and where the focal point and deeper meanings were.

A simple drop-down box for that purpose shouldn't be too hard to code, opening up only when the request Critique Club box has been checked.

I'm all for it.
To get something, you should be prepared to give something.
Why not?
10/14/2006 03:49:14 AM · #81
Originally posted by HBunch:

Originally posted by Artyste:



This is where contacting Manic or Karmat and getting them to remove the image from your queue comes in. If you *honestly* feel that you can't give the critique you need, it is an option. What they wanted to avoid, however, are one line comments like John was leaving on images.

I do agree that more effort needs to be put in place to stop just *anyone* from clicking the button.. but that's much, much, much easier said than done, from all aspects.. including coding, agreeing on what needs to be included, etc.. For me, it's just a "Do the best with what I have". And do it .. sporatically enough... to not become cynical about it ;)


Manic, Konador or me. i don't think karmat has much to do with the CC. I could be wrong though.

My only comment on this is that 'You didn't provide your thoughts on this image, so I'm not gonna waste my time critiquing it' is NOT a valid CC comment. I don't care how you look at it.


Perhaps the solution is two fold.

1. If you want specific questions answered, ask them in the photographer's commnents. If you just click the box, then I assume whatever you get is OK with you.

2. Provide a "pass" button. If the reviewer feels that (s)he cannot provide an adequate review, then they can click on the pass button and the photo goes back into the pile. Perhaps at the top for the next revewier. Having to ask for a manual removal can take a lot of time and cheat a lot of others out of having their photos critiqued. There are usually well more than 100 photos that are not reviewed each cycle.

BTW: In all the critiques I've done, I've received one (1) message from a person who wasn't happy with the critique. I did go back, revisit the photo, and replied to that person. In the meantime I have a fair number of messages thanking me for my time and/or views. Which is not to say that I am the gift to the world. What I do mean to say is that it appears that most people have felt that the critiques they got from all the critique club reviewers were helpful, and some were happy enough to send a personal message. Considering that often comments left during voting are "sucks", "too soft", "doesn't meet challenge", _insert the one you hate gettting here_, most of the critique club reviews, in comparison look like War and Peace.
10/14/2006 07:04:53 AM · #82
Originally posted by bucket:

I wish there was a reaction club. Instead of critiques, and tech details I could just get a sense of how the reviewer felt.

I agree largely on this - it could be useful to have both though because technique critiques are so useful to improve certain kinds of shot such as action or portraiture. Mastering your equipment is essential to getting the best of it so it's still handy to have expert assistance here.

As a matter of taste I prefer non-perfect photographs with less focus on technique and more on subject, so a reaction comment is more valuable to me.
10/14/2006 09:08:32 AM · #83
I think Artyste hit the closest to the mark regarding the Critique Club. I'm fairly new here but I've racked up 91 critiques so far and will not slow down anytime in the near future. What I've seen are very few images trying to "mean" something. Mostly the images critiqued were shot to meet a defined challenge and to try a new technique(like all of mine), not because the photographer was trying to make an artistic statement. Generally, those who are making artistic statements will shoot what the shoot and try to shoehorn it into a challenge. I had two such critques just this past week and they were easy to spot when I reviewed their profile page.

How did I critique them? I gave a couple of technical pointers and them I tried to encourage them to develop their style further. I think these type of members are important to the site and for my own development as a photographer. I'm thrilled I was assigned their images for critique, as I may have never seen their profile otherwise.

Now the question I want to add to the discussion for feedback. Should the photos requesting critique be assigned by the lowest score first? Most of the lower scores are people needing technical help and a little advise on how to identify the problem and fix it. Any thoughts?

Tim
10/14/2006 09:48:18 AM · #84

by lahulfman

Comment:
Critique Club

Hi, my name is Christian; I’m from the Critique Club, and WOOHOO! I love this image. As I said when I commented on it during voting. So...

The subject works very well, serious, beautiful, yet not threatening. Rather than a possible arrogance which could be shown in the face of a traditional warrior, there is instead dignity, wisdom and gravitas. A hint of sorrow?

The focus on the eyes is superb, with a detail and limpidity that make them seem truly alive.

The composition works very well; the tight crop really insisting we look into the subject’s eyes, making the connection. The lines of the tattoo bring you in and through to the eyes, on an unending loop. Which I’m sure was the original intent in traditional facework like this. The lines of the tattoo themselves are lovely, and they work in such harmony with his face.

The tones work well, a full tonal range, leaning toward the contrasty. Very nice indeed.

While some may have not agreed with the green cast, I find it quite effective. Despite his overwhelming humanity, the green does separate him, make him slightly otherworldly. Monumental.

Well done indeed. Would I change anything? No.

If you have any questions, please pm me.

Cheers,

C.

p.s. i gave you a 9 in voting

_________________________________________________________________

this is a crit i gave to lahulfman - i'm showin this one is particular because it's a positive one - i do give crits which contain more 'constructive' comments, but those are for the artist to display. i'm just including to show how one can have both an objective and a subjective critique in the same package. they don't have to be separate, as they are about the same thing, and each play a part in the learning process as a whole.

10/14/2006 09:53:26 AM · #85
Originally posted by xianart:



Comment:
Critique Club

Hi, my name is Christian; I’m from the Critique Club, and WOOHOO! I love this image. As I said when I commented on it during voting. So...

The subject works very well, serious, beautiful, yet not threatening. Rather than a possible arrogance which could be shown in the face of a traditional warrior, there is instead dignity, wisdom and gravitas. A hint of sorrow?

The focus on the eyes is superb, with a detail and limpidity that make them seem truly alive.

The composition works very well; the tight crop really insisting we look into the subject’s eyes, making the connection. The lines of the tattoo bring you in and through to the eyes, on an unending loop. Which I’m sure was the original intent in traditional facework like this. The lines of the tattoo themselves are lovely, and they work in such harmony with his face.

The tones work well, a full tonal range, leaning toward the contrasty. Very nice indeed.

While some may have not agreed with the green cast, I find it quite effective. Despite his overwhelming humanity, the green does separate him, make him slightly otherworldly. Monumental.

Well done indeed. Would I change anything? No.

If you have any questions, please pm me.

Cheers,

C.

p.s. i gave you a 9 in voting



To me this is a "half way" decent critique.

I wouldn't of shmoozed with the post script however. That's just me.

Message edited by author 2006-10-14 09:55:12.
10/14/2006 09:57:56 AM · #86
the schmooze was sincere - i really found this one of the best images i've seen for while.
10/14/2006 03:40:31 PM · #87
Originally posted by atupdate:

Generally, those who are making artistic statements will shoot what the shoot and try to shoehorn it into a challenge.


I find it very frustrating how many people at this site marginalize art, including someone whose username is "Artyste"! Art is not about making a statement, though it can do that. Nor is it incompatible with a challenge. You can meet the challenge in an artful way, not a shoehorn. A shoehorn is a shoehorn, anyone can do that, art or no. The artist decides either present a great image that directly meets the challenge, or s/he can decide to meet the challenge in a way that forces the viewer to re-evaluate what the challenge means and what it can allow.

Art is a universal, general impulse to communicate something meaningful. It is not something to shove into a dark corner of a museum. That also means art should not get a free ride in critiques. It is not a valid critique to say, "this is an artistic shot so it's okay I can't make any sense out of it..." or "it's okay that it doesn't meet the challenge." Every single photo should be a work of art. If it is not, you should mention it in the critique (gently of course).
10/14/2006 03:59:10 PM · #88
Originally posted by posthumous:

Every single photo should be a work of art. If it is not, you should mention it in the critique (gently of course).


Ken would be very, very busy if that were true... :-)

Christian - very nice critique, in my opinion.

As for whether the lower scores should be first in line? That's an interesting idea. It sometimes surprises me to see which photographer's work comes up for a critique - some from folks I figure have a pretty darn good handle on what it is they do (I had one of those this week.)
10/14/2006 04:06:48 PM · #89
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by atupdate:

Generally, those who are making artistic statements will shoot what the shoot and try to shoehorn it into a challenge.


I find it very frustrating how many people at this site marginalize art, including someone whose username is "Artyste"! Art is not about making a statement, though it can do that. Nor is it incompatible with a challenge. You can meet the challenge in an artful way, not a shoehorn. A shoehorn is a shoehorn, anyone can do that, art or no. The artist decides either present a great image that directly meets the challenge, or s/he can decide to meet the challenge in a way that forces the viewer to re-evaluate what the challenge means and what it can allow.

Art is a universal, general impulse to communicate something meaningful. It is not something to shove into a dark corner of a museum. That also means art should not get a free ride in critiques. It is not a valid critique to say, "this is an artistic shot so it's okay I can't make any sense out of it..." or "it's okay that it doesn't meet the challenge." Every single photo should be a work of art. If it is not, you should mention it in the critique (gently of course).


I never meant to marginalize it, only to show that it is naturally marginalized *already* here. One only has to look at my critiques to know that I generally attempt to tackle *both* issues.. technical and "feeling", myself.. but that I understand that artistic, as was being talked about by the OP, isn't exactly a DPC strong-point, and probably won't ever be.

Now.. to set the record straight.. my *name* has nothing to do with being an artist. It's a polish spelling of the word artist, surely, but came about in the distant past out of a group of friends in my first ever chat room after showing them some drawings I had done, and it stuck with me ever since. I never, ever, ever claim to be an expert in any artistic field, and.. actually.. have a large disdain for the Art Community as a whole ;)

But C'est la Vie, one uses a name like I use, and one lives with people assuming he is somehow using the word only to be presumptuous in some way. Just wanted to get that off my chest.

By the way.. I don't assume you're a zombie ;)
10/14/2006 04:18:15 PM · #90
Originally posted by Artyste:

have a large disdain for the Art Community as a whole ;)


well, sometimes an "Art Community" is a bunch of elitists who are, in their own way, trying to marginalize art by making it their exclusive property. I have a disdain for that as well.

Originally posted by Artyste:

By the way.. I don't assume you're a zombie ;)


some day that might prove to be a fatal mistake...
10/14/2006 04:21:15 PM · #91
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Artyste:

have a large disdain for the Art Community as a whole ;)


well, sometimes an "Art Community" is a bunch of elitists who are, in their own way, trying to marginalize art by making it their exclusive property. I have a disdain for that as well.

Originally posted by Artyste:

By the way.. I don't assume you're a zombie ;)


some day that might prove to be a fatal mistake...


*snicker*
10/14/2006 04:45:19 PM · #92
::YIKES:: CALL 911...everyone's hair is on fire in this thread!!!

As I'm watching this train ride from the flying car of Harry Potter, I think we should all return to our respective realms of photography and learn to be grateful for whatever meaning (artistic or otherwise) our photos bring into our individual lives. My impression of the critique process is that it's designed to build each other UP...not bring each other down.

Just my $.02.
10/14/2006 04:51:03 PM · #93
Originally posted by hihosilver:

::YIKES:: CALL 911...everyone's hair is on fire in this thread!!!

As I'm watching this train ride from the flying car of Harry Potter, I think we should all return to our respective realms of photography and learn to be grateful for whatever meaning (artistic or otherwise) our photos bring into our individual lives. My impression of the critique process is that it's designed to build each other UP...not bring each other down.

Just my $.02.


I've actually been inspired by this thread. I've seen e301, bucket, Melethia and Imagineer, for example, say things that make a lot of sense to me and give me the desire to keep commenting.
10/14/2006 04:56:38 PM · #94
Originally posted by posthumous:


I've actually been inspired by this thread. I've seen e301, bucket, Melethia and Imagineer, for example, say things that make a lot of sense to me and give me the desire to keep commenting.


Yes, well, if anything, this website is definitely educational as well as INTENSE. Carry on then...:-)
10/14/2006 05:09:44 PM · #95
Originally posted by hihosilver:

Originally posted by posthumous:


I've actually been inspired by this thread. I've seen e301, bucket, Melethia and Imagineer, for example, say things that make a lot of sense to me and give me the desire to keep commenting.


Yes, well, if anything, this website is definitely educational as well as INTENSE. Carry on then...:-)


No, I'm too busy commenting! ;)
10/14/2006 05:33:32 PM · #96
Seems to me it's been a rather civil and informative thread.

Well, except for the fact posthumous, while most likely not a zombie, could well be a vampire. (Vampires are MUCH cooler undead types than zombies.)
10/14/2006 06:08:25 PM · #97
Originally posted by Melethia:

Seems to me it's been a rather civil and informative thread.

Well, except for the fact posthumous, while most likely not a zombie, could well be a vampire. (Vampires are MUCH cooler undead types than zombies.)


Yes, I've found this thread rather fascinating. I do absolutely enjoy all the comments left to me by the mighty pen of the "undead" and ALWAYS look forward to them...;-)
10/14/2006 07:20:19 PM · #98
I like spam.

I hate brussels sprouts.
10/14/2006 08:24:27 PM · #99
Originally posted by Melethia:

Seems to me it's been a rather civil and informative thread.

Well, except for the fact posthumous, while most likely not a zombie, could well be a vampire. (Vampires are MUCH cooler undead types than zombies.)


This is not the first time you have shown a spooky amount of insight into something that I wouldn't expect you to know. Hmmm... might have to do something about that.....


10/14/2006 09:49:50 PM · #100
Originally posted by posthumous:


No, I'm too busy commenting! ;)


Well, Lestat, I've been waiting all day for your comment on my ducky. I fully expect the word "dull" to be used creatively and artistically.
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