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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> High Contrast: Blanket Constructive Criticism
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10/04/2006 06:35:59 PM · #1
I've noticed quite a few low scores in the HC scores thread, some very unhappy DPC'ers, and a few negative comments about the whole batch of photos. It seems like a bit of a tough challenge!

If you're getting a low score and don't have any comments, here are a couple ideas, intended as constructive criticism. Some of them may not apply to you, and take this with a grain of salt:

Many of the shots look like a standard picture, increased contrast in PS, then submitted. While they may technically have "high contrast", it may not be a good high contrast. Many times you may need to tone down the saturation as you increase the contrast, or the result is non-aesthetic.

Other entries seem to have gone the other route. Take a picture, desaturate completely (B/W), increase contrast, and submit. The danger here is that all elements become very loud and the image is somewhat of a contrast overload.

Both these methods are a somewhat mechanical, non-artistic way to produce "high contrast".

One of the best examples of high contrast I've seen thus far in the competition (I've only seen about 20%) seemed like it would be a very dull picture straight out of the camera. However, once it was tastefully desaturated (somewhat sepia), the distracting background elements melted away. Add to that a touch of contrast, meaningfully blowing out some of the highlights, the interesting elements stood out nicely. The "high contrast" was totally used to increase the aesthetics of the image, making it all the more interesting.

Finally, the biggest thing that is difficult for us all (myself totally included) is finding something truly captivating; worth photographing and sharing. It can be a person, an event, an idea, a shot meant to illicit a feeling. But it needs to be more than an everyday snapshot, tuned to fit the challenge. If you simply have no ideas, let the challenge pass. You're better off with no score than a 3.0-4.0 pulling down that average.

So there it is, take it or leave it.

Best of luck, all! =)

Cheers,
-Jeff
10/04/2006 06:45:19 PM · #2
While I agree with what you're saying, what you're describing as "One of the best examples of high contrast", sounds a lot like high-key. Is that the same as high contrast, or have I misunderstood the whole game? Surely you can darken shadows, leaving minimal white areas to define your subject matter and still be considered high contrast...?
10/04/2006 06:50:51 PM · #3
High key and high contrast are not the same. High key photos are very bright but don't have deep shadows to contrast with hence they are not high contrast images.
10/04/2006 06:51:06 PM · #4
Well, the "blown out highlights" comment may have thrown off my description. Nonethe ess, my overall point was that, whether dark or light, the effect really added to the image's effectiveness, as opposed to contrast for the sake of contrast.
10/04/2006 07:01:38 PM · #5
Great, thanks for clearing that up guys :)
10/04/2006 07:04:39 PM · #6
Originally posted by yanko:

High key and high contrast are not the same. High key photos are very bright but don't have deep shadows to contrast with hence they are not high contrast images.


Yes, exactly high key and low key are not High Contrast (or at least shouldn't be). Gnereally, those two methods are normal to low contrast.

Edit: Danr typos

Message edited by author 2006-10-04 19:05:24.
10/04/2006 07:06:19 PM · #7
Originally posted by rinac:

While I agree with what you're saying, what you're describing as "One of the best examples of high contrast", sounds a lot like high-key. Is that the same as high contrast, or have I misunderstood the whole game? Surely you can darken shadows, leaving minimal white areas to define your subject matter and still be considered high contrast...?


I understand your confusion about this - especially when looking at the pictures in the challenge. A lot of them are more "high key" than "high contrast"...
10/04/2006 07:16:39 PM · #8
Originally posted by smurfguy:

You're better off with no score than a 3.0-4.0 pulling down that average.



Only if you think that your average score is at all meaningful, which it isn't. Much better to use that week's pulic viewing, and the comments recieved, to asses the impact of your work. The vast majority of us will have a different opinion of our shots after a weeks exposure, and that's the real use of the learning process, and the real fun of this place.

Ed
10/04/2006 07:26:35 PM · #9
This guy >>> e301 knows what he sayeth. Its a learning experience. One of my worst scores ever was Motion Panning. Boy did i think my little guy looked cute. But, had i not submitted, it would never have occured to me that the picture just wasn't that good! I'll be ready the next time a motion panning challenge rolls around.

Cheers.
10/04/2006 07:31:47 PM · #10
Originally posted by e301:

and the comments recieved


Sadly, voters are extraordinarily tight with comments around here.
10/04/2006 07:33:38 PM · #11
In another thread I was told the histogram doesnt say if a shot is high contrast or not, any comments?



*edited to say this is my submsision*

Message edited by author 2006-10-04 19:36:30.
10/04/2006 07:42:34 PM · #12
Originally posted by pineapple:

Originally posted by e301:

and the comments recieved


Sadly, voters are extraordinarily tight with comments around here.


Yes they are! Currently my submissions have:
Free Study XIII: 144 votes, 5 comments, 5.5 score
Unrelatedenss: 112 votes, 3 comments, 5.1 score
High Contrast II: 47 votes, 0 comments, 4.5 score

Thats less than 3% of voters leaving a comment. Given the average of these three submissions is around 5.0 I'd hope for a better ratio than that! It's also interesting that the number of comments seem to be higher if the image is scoring higher - the wrong way around from what I would prefer.
10/04/2006 07:45:47 PM · #13
I cant figure out how to post my histo but it has two sharp peaks on the left, not much in the middle, and a smaller peak on the right. Granted, i bumped contrast in processing but picture was taken outdoors on a sunny day.

I believe that a high contrast image will have some sharp peaks and valleys as the pixels are more concentrated in a smaller area and less middle tones are present. A histo that looks like a traditional bell curve means the tones of the picture are spread out more evenly. JMO and i'm not to anal with my voting so don't thow any rotten fruits my way.

Mark
10/04/2006 07:54:47 PM · #14
Originally posted by Nuzzer:

Sadly, voters are extraordinarily tight with comments around here.


Precisely what I was trying to do with this thread - provide feedback for the group of photos as a whole.

If possible, I'd like to avoid the neverending debate of "what is high contrast exactly", because we'll all never agree, and I'd like to invite others to provide constructive comments on general trends if they feel so inclined.
10/04/2006 08:29:30 PM · #15
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:

In another thread I was told the histogram doesnt say if a shot is high contrast or not, any comments?



*edited to say this is my submsision*


depends on where in the picture those peaks come. If the dark is next to the light, then yes, it's high contrast.

If the dark is concentrated on the left of the shot, the light is concentrated on the right of the shot, and the rest is spread throughout between them, then it wouldn't be high contrast, but you would get that histogram.

For example, this is just a grayscale gradient done in photoshop. I wouldn't call this high contrast.



But the histogram looks like this.



Very similar to yours.
10/04/2006 10:03:16 PM · #16
Here are 4 variations of the generic black-to-white gradient shown below, each with adjustments in contrast and its accompanying luminance histogram:



The first of these is normal contrast, the second is very low contrast, the third is moderately high contrast, and the last is extremely high contrast.

Here's an image of very high color contrast and very low luminance contrast:



R.

Message edited by author 2006-10-04 22:15:53.
10/04/2006 10:58:54 PM · #17
Originally posted by pineapple:

Originally posted by e301:

and the comments recieved


Sadly, voters are extraordinarily tight with comments around here.


Well said. Especially for a newbie like me. I long for comments (regardless of how hard some may be to swallow) as I want to improve the quality of my photography skills. I get few comments and even fewer with useful information (no technical info). Just one of the enfamous "I don't get it" or "It doesn't move me" comments.

At least my latest challenge comments (received) did two things: 1) said what I did well & 2) said what I did not do well. Only thing more I could have asked for is 3) what could I have done to improve that aspect that is not right.
10/04/2006 11:04:19 PM · #18
Originally posted by Nuzzer:

Originally posted by pineapple:

Originally posted by e301:

and the comments recieved


Sadly, voters are extraordinarily tight with comments around here.


Yes they are! Currently my submissions have:
Free Study XIII: 144 votes, 5 comments, 5.5 score
Unrelatedenss: 112 votes, 3 comments, 5.1 score
High Contrast II: 47 votes, 0 comments, 4.5 score

Thats less than 3% of voters leaving a comment. Given the average of these three submissions is around 5.0 I'd hope for a better ratio than that! It's also interesting that the number of comments seem to be higher if the image is scoring higher - the wrong way around from what I would prefer.


But do you feel it is a reasonable expectation that every voter leaves comments with every vote? The time constraint alone would keep people from voting. I agree with you the percentage should be much higher than 3% or less, but I don't know what the 'magic' number is.
10/04/2006 11:06:08 PM · #19
I leave constructive comments sometimes but then I'm afraid I'll piss somebody off, and if it, to my eye, is just dreadful, I don't know how to nicely say "this is the most awful thing I've ever seen" when I can't think of a way to improve it other than start over.

I am in complete agreement about the high contrast thing. I see some killer shots, but they have as many midtones as shadows and highlights, or MORE midtones than anything. THAT IS NOT HIGH CONTRAST.

(ok, I'll go sulk over my diminishing score and take solice in the fact that a few comments it was high contrast) ;~D
10/04/2006 11:44:52 PM · #20
Originally posted by dallasdux:

Originally posted by Nuzzer:

Thats less than 3% of voters leaving a comment.


But do you feel it is a reasonable expectation that every voter leaves comments with every vote? The time constraint alone would keep people from voting. I agree with you the percentage should be much higher than 3% or less, but I don't know what the 'magic' number is.


I don't think we should expect everyone to make comments. A 4.6 image that has over 50 votes should have more than 0 comments - a 10% ratio at least as it's getting 3's and 4's. Even if someone said "I dont think you understand what High Contrast is" then I would have learnt that I misunderstood the concept in the voters eyes.
10/05/2006 12:15:20 AM · #21
I have received comments from 3.4% of the votes I've received. This is over 40 challenges. So that seems about right.

As far as the effect of 1,2, and 3 votes (which are supposed to be commented) I had one entry with 109 such votes and only 3 comments, so people don't necessarily comment when they are instructed to do so.

I currently have 8 comments with 145 votes in Free Study XIII (ave 5.37)
and 0 comments with 51 votes in High COntrast (ave 5.63). But there are so many entries I don't expect comments for a while. I think most people vote first then comment as time allows.

I comment on about half of the pictures I vote on, but I don't vote in all challenges nor do I vote 100% in any challenge, so it doesn't take that much time.

Message edited by author 2006-10-05 00:18:51.
10/05/2006 12:24:47 AM · #22
I'm bored so I did some calculations - over the last 554 challenges there have been 1442044 comments made and 26934948 votes cast - or one comment per 19 votes


10/05/2006 08:29:46 AM · #23
Originally posted by talmy:

I have received comments from 3.4% of the votes I've received. This is over 40 challenges. So that seems about right.

As far as the effect of 1,2, and 3 votes (which are supposed to be commented) I had one entry with 109 such votes and only 3 comments, so people don't necessarily comment when they are instructed to do so.

I currently have 8 comments with 145 votes in Free Study XIII (ave 5.37)
and 0 comments with 51 votes in High COntrast (ave 5.63). But there are so many entries I don't expect comments for a while. I think most people vote first then comment as time allows.

I comment on about half of the pictures I vote on, but I don't vote in all challenges nor do I vote 100% in any challenge, so it doesn't take that much time.


While the calculations are nice and might make one think that 5% of entries are being voted on is slightly misleading. As someone mentioned below, the "REALLY good" entries get a lot of comments(respectively speaking) and those of medium to lesser scores get far fewer. I would be interested to know the number of individual submissions that get comments compared to the total number of submissions. My guess is that it is at best 3% but probably ranges around 2% or so.

Message edited by author 2006-10-05 08:30:16.
10/05/2006 08:41:37 AM · #24
Originally posted by talmy:



As far as the effect of 1,2, and 3 votes (which are supposed to be commented) I had one entry with 109 such votes and only 3 comments, so people don't necessarily comment when they are instructed to do so.


Just curious, where on DPC does it instruct people to vote? I found where it is "encouraged" but I did not see any mandates or instructions on if voting in scores X to Y, you should comment.

Above meant sincerely, I'm just curious because I have given lower scores before without commenting (just as I've given high scores without commenting). I do try to comment when I have some critique to give, but I also try to vote in either All or None of a challenge to give everyone in that challenge a fair shake and I simply don't have time to comment on everything.

Message edited by author 2006-10-05 08:42:30.
10/05/2006 10:17:09 AM · #25
No mandate. Just a suggestion. But with as many entries as there are now, the percentages of voting/commenting is surely going to go down. In free study? Come on. I do comment alot, but surely can't on all any more. There are just too many to look through. I am approaching 20,000 comments made though. (hee hee)
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