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06/10/2006 11:04:49 AM · #26 |
Your soccer shot is pretty good technique-wise but the light just wasn't there for you. You caught an interesting moment of action, included ball and face(s) and a clear background.
Baseball and softball I do mostly handheld. For the big field sports like soccer, lacrosse and football I use a monopod. If for no other reason, the monopod lets me feel a little more comfortable on the sidelines rubbing elbows with the pros. Another equipment item I'd reccommend is a wide, neoprene neckstrap to replace the one that came with your camera. Mine cost me about $15 and it's one of the best investments I've made. It looks more "pro", and big lenses get heavy over the course of a game, especially in the summer when it's hot and you're sweating.
Anyone care to share some tips for shooting bicycle races? I want to work on panning shots with motion blurred backgrounds.
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06/10/2006 11:07:46 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by Jason:
in regards to the soccer pics... you would not be able to submit that image to the paper because you used a noise reduction technique. Think of editorial work as a basic challenge here on DPC. You can crop, adjust white balance, brightness and contrast... that's about it. |
Why can't you use noise reduction when shooting for a paper? I know of it being done quite often. |
The image must remain as "true" as possible.
Two exerts from the Associated Press website:
"AP pictures must always tell the truth. We do not alter or manipulate the content of a photograph in any way."
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"Minor adjustments in PhotoShop are acceptable. These include cropping, dodging and burning, conversion into grayscale, and normal toning and color adjustments that should be limited to those minimally necessary for clear and accurate reproduction (analogous to the burning and dodging often used in darkroom processing of images) and that restore the authentic nature of the photograph. Changes in density, contrast, color and saturation levels that substantially alter the original scene are not acceptable. Backgrounds should not be digitally blurred or eliminated by burning down or by aggressive toning." |
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06/10/2006 11:12:17 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Anyone care to share some tips for shooting bicycle races? I want to work on panning shots with motion blurred backgrounds. |
Cool, I would love to go to that type of event.
Probly the same stuff as discussed in this thread applies to bike races as well.
It's not the sporting event that you need to worry about, it's how you approach the challenges at the event/venue/field that you need to be aware of.
Like Clint Eastwoods charactor said in 'Heartbreak Ridge'..."adapt, overcome, improvise...".
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06/10/2006 11:17:54 AM · #29 |
Jason. I notice you have some seriously nice kit. Have you had your photos refused by a newspaper?
I remember a thread a little while back where quite a number of guys commented who shoot for papers that they were no issues with fixing up a pic before submitting it to the paper as long as it looked like a real picture.
No changes in content etc...
I think that several mentioned that they used NI or something similar.
I can see that NI could easily be abused to render a scene plastic, but to just knock down the noise a touch, I really can't see any reason why there would be a problem with it...
I don't shoot professionally (well, I got my first paid shoot coming up in a couple of weeks, but it's more of a practice run), but I believe that this is currently the situation for most press.
Edit: Oh yeah and nice thread Mr Horse man.
Message edited by author 2006-06-10 11:18:45. |
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06/10/2006 11:40:17 AM · #30 |
| here's a tip to try for cycling... focus lock on the handlebars not the face, it's more contrasty and easier to follow. |
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06/10/2006 11:45:06 AM · #31 |
| Nothing I have submitted has ever been refused. My peers and others have always told me that you don't do it, so I never did. :) |
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06/10/2006 01:12:57 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by American_Horse:
Again, your eye is good, it's not up to anyone but yourself if you feel that some of these quidelines work for you or not. But, if you have competition, and want to make money...quality always out does quantity. |
I'm not trying to argue that your rules are incorrect.
I have also spent a lot of time reading on sportsshooter.com. There is a ton of good information there, but it is all written by folks who shoot in a utopian environment. If we were all shooting in professional sports arenas, those rules would be easy to follow and execute. The guidelines always work.
There are certainly different objectives that photographers have.
//setzlersports.blogspot.com/
In the photos in my blog, you will see some that perfectly execute all of those guidelines and others that do not. I often find myself limited by the venue and my gear. I can't always blur out the backgrounds, but I try to when possible. I'm a 'single' shooter. In most professional environments, where SI and AP photogrpahers are working, there are multiple photographers working an event. No single photographer is responsible for covering the entire event like we are in most cases. If I was only responsible for covering the action at first base in a baseball game, I could easily find the perfect place to shoot from and have most of those 'guidelines' intact. Since I don't have that privilege, I try to get what I can from were I can. A lot of the shots I shoot at an event do not meet my own standards of 'good photography'. One of the most annoying things I have to contend with when I'm shooting for the newspaper is 'filling holes'. I rarely get to use my 'best' photos from a sporting event. I never know what size or shape my photos need to be until AFTER the shoot. When I get back to the newspaper with my images, the sports editor tells me the dimensions of the holes I need to fill with photos. Our pages aren't designed around the photos. The photos are used to fill empty space. I personally think this is a very bad idea, but it's what I have to work with :)
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06/10/2006 01:36:24 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Anyone care to share some tips for shooting bicycle races? I want to work on panning shots with motion blurred backgrounds. |
I know I'm going to hate myself for saying this (and you're probably going to hate me too), but have you considered begging/stealing/borrowing an IS lens? The speed of the cyclists going past is not going to be too great (unless there is a sprint for finish or points), so shutter speed might have to be quite slow to get a decent amount of blur.
Sorry.
Two of the best bike shots that I've seen were quite different. One was pretty much taken on a tripod set up near a corner with second-curtain flash. Nice trail leading up to the sharp rider centre shot. I bet that took a few goes to get right (and, possibly an ND filter). The other was possibly with a long lens looking straight down the track from behind the finish line. This was a sprint finish and one of the riders had his head almost on his handlebars, but was snatching a forward glance.
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06/10/2006 01:47:26 PM · #34 |
Anything like this what you're looking to do? I don't have many of my photos uploaded, but 99% of them are in a track situation like these. |
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06/10/2006 02:53:17 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by AJAger:
I know I'm going to hate myself for saying this (and you're probably going to hate me too), but have you considered begging/stealing/borrowing an IS lens? The speed of the cyclists going past is not going to be too great (unless there is a sprint for finish or points), so shutter speed might have to be quite slow to get a decent amount of blur.
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I think this is a common misconception of what IS does. IS does NOT give you a faster shutter speed. It just minimizes camera shake. I don't believe that IS would change much about those photos.
FWIW, I like both of those bicycle race shots. They show an excellent sense of motion. Sports photography doesn't always have to be about freezing the action. When motion is nicely portrayed, the images are often very good...
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06/10/2006 03:24:25 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by AJAger:
I know I'm going to hate myself for saying this (and you're probably going to hate me too), but have you considered begging/stealing/borrowing an IS lens? The speed of the cyclists going past is not going to be too great (unless there is a sprint for finish or points), so shutter speed might have to be quite slow to get a decent amount of blur.
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I think this is a common misconception of what IS does. IS does NOT give you a faster shutter speed. It just minimizes camera shake.
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Common misconception, my hat. How on earth could a faster shutter speed give you the motion blur that you might require? I think that I didn't explain myself terribly clearly. It's pretty obvious that IS does not give a faster shutter speed. When you actually want a longer exposure time, the IS system helps keep the photo sharp, particularly in Mode 2, where the correction is in the vertical direction only.
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06/10/2006 03:33:04 PM · #37 |
I think i misunderstood what I read.... sorry :)
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06/10/2006 03:40:17 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think i misunderstood what I read.... sorry :) |
Sorry that I was a bit snappy. I don't always explain myself too well and then I get upset when others don't understand what I mean. That's my problem and one of these days, I'll get some counselling for it.
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06/10/2006 05:26:51 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I'm not trying to argue that your rules are incorrect. |
there not my rules. they are guides that I have picked up.
nice stuff in your blog.
Message edited by author 2006-06-10 17:28:04.
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06/11/2006 12:28:45 AM · #40 |
Another 'rule' of good sports photography:
Create "Feature" shots of players as often as you can.
Example: Angel Salome - West Virginia Power
This is not an action shot, but this is what MiLB.com wants the most of. MiLB.com is Minor League Baseball's official website. They most often use shots like this when they feature a player in a story. They aren't as interested in action photos. If you browse that site, you will see that feature art is relatively important.
When I'm shooting for my newspaper, I shoot mostly action photos, but I slip in a lot of these as I'm shooting. I frequently get calls asking for this type of photo when the paper decides to run a feature story on a specific player. It creates a little extra cash in my pocket when I have lots of these photos available. This type of photo is also what I use a lot of when I'm preparing images for baseball cards. I got roped into doing baseball cards for my local minor league team on very short notice this season, but there is a second set coming out before long and I've had adequate time to shoot for that set.
Hickory Crawdads Baseball Card Set 1
Hickory Crawdads Baseball Card set 2 (incomplete)
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06/11/2006 01:00:42 AM · #41 |
The background advertisement issue:
Kyle Pearson - Hickory Crawdads
This is a situation that, as described earlier, should be avoided whenever possible. At this particular baseball park, the outfield wall is made up of advertisements all the way around the ball park with the exception of behind the pitcher from home plate. Here's an example of that view:
Todd Redmond - Hickory Crawdads
Even at this view, the background isn't optimal. How can these shots be improved?
The best bet is less depth of field, which probably can't be achieved (much) on either of these compositions. A 300mm f/2.8 lens would give me one more stop of shallow DOF which would help to some degree. I shot both of these photos at near 300mm at f/4. I'm using my 70-200 f/2.8L with a 1.4x teleconverter. Removing the teleconverter and shooting at f/2.8 would not give me much less depth of field because of the shorter focal length. So, I could spend almost $4000 to get a better photo. What I make doing this doesn't quite allow me to spend that much on a lens to make a marginally better photo. If I had the 400mm f/2.8 lens, could I get a better photo? These two compositions would not be possible with that lens. I could not shoot these compositions to include the full body of the players from the locations where I shoot.
In a nutshell, reading about good sports photography is a good thing. Trying to apply what you read is also admirable. Actually being able to apply what you read about may truly be impossible.
There is much more to this than simply finding a set of guidelines that are reasonably good and trying to follow them. The best thing to do is go experiment and see what you can come up with.
My take on these guidelines that have been posted here is positive, so don't get me wrong :) I would like to give sports photographers a little less stringent starting point though:
I thing someone mentioned some of these things here already, so this is not new news...
Good sports (action) photos have these qualities:
1. When a ball is involved in the sport, the ball should usually be visible in the photo.
2. If there is only one player in the photo, the face, or a majority of it should also be visible.
3. If there are multiple players in the shot, multiple faces should be visible (not necessarily all of them). The 'controlling' player in the photo should have visible facial features (intensity is great).
A beginning sports photographer should strive to achieve these three things before worrying about the other items that have been mentioned. Keep in mind that CONTENT is very important. The content of the image may override the rest of the technicals in a lot of cases.
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06/11/2006 01:27:01 AM · #42 |
Well, my bicycle race shoot turned out to be a bust. It was a longer course than I was expecting, about a mile and a half so you got to shoot for about 10-15 seconds and then wait a long time; the two best corners for leaning shots were at the end of uphils so they were going slow; very few places that had the sun on the right side and uncluttered backgrounds; and too bright to get slow enough shutter speed to stop the action and still have wide aperture to separate rider from bg. I think an ND filter, or two, would have helped a lot. I'll post a few in the morning if I can find some decent ones. I need more practice at this. It seems harder than shooting motorcycles, maybe because the speeds are slower.
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06/11/2006 01:28:47 AM · #43 |
That leads to another rule (I don't think it was mentioned earlier).
Never put yourself or your subject at risk for a shot. |
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06/11/2006 01:31:40 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
That leads to another rule (I don't think it was mentioned earlier).
Never put yourself or your subject at risk for a shot. |
Thats a good point. I got my 'bells' rung in the dugout tonight :)
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06/11/2006 01:47:42 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
That leads to another rule (I don't think it was mentioned earlier).
Never put yourself or your subject at risk for a shot. |
Thats a good point. I got my 'bells' rung in the dugout tonight :) |
Maybe a good rule would be to wear whatever safety equipment the players are wearing ... : ) |
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06/11/2006 02:08:14 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
That leads to another rule (I don't think it was mentioned earlier).
Never put yourself or your subject at risk for a shot. |
Thats a good point. I got my 'bells' rung in the dugout tonight :) |
Maybe a good rule would be to wear whatever safety equipment the players are wearing ... : ) |
The best rule of thumb is to understand your surroundings and plan accordingly. It was my fault that I got hit. The fact that the 2nd baseman made a wild throw to first and the ball came in the dugout is actually MY problem and not his. When you are watching sports through a telephoto lens, you can't track the ball, especially when you are pointing the camera somewhere else.
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06/11/2006 02:42:56 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
That leads to another rule (I don't think it was mentioned earlier).
Never put yourself or your subject at risk for a shot. |
Thats a good point. I got my 'bells' rung in the dugout tonight :) |
Maybe a good rule would be to wear whatever safety equipment the players are wearing ... : ) |
LOL can you imagine showing up to a hocky game or football game in full pads... or a cycling race in spandex and a helmet? |
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06/11/2006 10:01:34 AM · #48 |
A couple of good books to get and read up on about these guidelines are
"Digital Sports Photography" by G. Newman Lowrance ; Thomson Course Technology
"How to shoot and Sell Sports Photography" by David Arndt ; Amherst Media, Inc.
"Digital Sports Photography : Take Winning Shots Every Time" by Serge Timacheff and David Karlins ; Wiley
"Xtreme Sports Photography: Taking Pictures on the Edge" by Simon Fraser;Rotovision
Message edited by author 2006-06-11 10:09:11.
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06/11/2006 10:18:36 AM · #49 |
| Thanks to all that have posted here, I,m going to shoot my son,s Tyke football game today, I,m using a Nikon d70s and an AF-S VR Nikor 70-200 mm 1:2.8G lens hand held on a clear day lots of sun. I.m sure that using some advise off this thread my shot hopefuly be better. |
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06/11/2006 11:02:47 AM · #50 |
Here are a couple //www.Sportshooter.com articles about some shooting tips.
What is the secret handshake
Leading Off:Pop Quiz
Message edited by author 2008-06-28 19:03:38.
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