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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> My own personal "Liberty and Justice"
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05/12/2006 04:12:45 PM · #1
Anybody who is a regular to the site knows jmsetzler's "Liberty and Justice" as being a great picture which became a lightning rod for opinion:



Apparently I have found another lightning rod with my "Follow the Leader" shot:



Is it really that bad that I killed 4 bugs on the way to winning a ribbon? What is it? Because they are red and cute? Because they are helpful in the garden? I don't quite get it.

I love life. My career's whole aim is to help life. I love animals and have even stooped to taking spiders outside instead of squishing them or even leaving slugs alone, but if there is utility in the death of something as low as an insect, I'm gonna kill the bug. My favorite class in all of undergrad was entymology. 75% of our grade was dependent on us being able to find, kill, and mount 50 different genera of bugs. It was fascinating. Insects never stop amazing me and I hope to one day get that 100mm f2.8 macro so I can really go crazy with them. Even my kids have taken my interest in bugs. Caden has 5 butterflies mounted on his wall we caught together in our bug expeditions.

So while everybody is entitled to their opinion, I tend to think people who are opposed to me killing the ladybugs (I did it in the freezer BTW) is a fairly hypocritical position and not well thought out. Life is based on one animal killing the other whether we like it or not. Do we even think twice about killing flies, bees, mosquitos, ants? Is it because they aren't as cute? All those insects have utility as well so I can't quite buy the "usefulness" argument.

OK, just had to vent a bit, but don't worry, you can keep leaving comments. I'd like to get one of the Top 10 commented pictures anyway... ;)

EDIT: spelling

Message edited by author 2006-05-12 16:13:49.
05/12/2006 04:19:55 PM · #2
Sheesh the many things people will go through to get a ribbon :P

Hehehehehe!

Seriously Doc, who gives a rat's ass? It's like saying, "Oh crap. I just stepped on an ant. I'm a murderer!" Gimme a break! Sure people are entitled to their own opinions but about these little bugs? PUHLEEESE!

Pontificate all they want, the idea and creativity came from you. Maybe they're just jealous. "Well why didn't I think of that?" Sheesh!

It's a ribbon worthy image my friend. Well deserved. But be warned, next time you freeze a bug, I'm coming after you! LOL!

Cheers,

Rikki
05/12/2006 04:35:11 PM · #3
I thought they were plastic. It just goes to show some people here just like to find fault in everything, great picture doc.

Message edited by author 2006-05-12 17:29:31.
05/12/2006 04:38:48 PM · #4
My younger sister and niece hate lady bugs. They do bite you know? And my brother in law actually has mild allergic reactions to contact with them. They would applaud you.

Carry on, doc.
05/12/2006 04:44:09 PM · #5
Maybe we should call you Dr Death :)
05/12/2006 05:00:25 PM · #6
After several seasons of "bush-geology", I laugh when I hear anybody stick up for insect rights. I do like dragonfly's though, as they would swoop by and pluck horseflies off of me for their lunch.

Do these people never drive over five miles an hour to avoid harming the precious bugs?

LOL. Some people are just aching for a cause, any cause.

:-D
05/12/2006 05:02:55 PM · #7
Sounds like they are Janist

"Janist Prayer
Peace and universal love is the essence of all the Gospels.
Forgive do I creatures all,
and let all creatures forgive me."

I don't like Janist.

Love the Bug and Thread Killer
AKA The Wazz :-P

Message edited by author 2006-05-12 17:04:10.
05/12/2006 05:07:19 PM · #8


I killed these lambs for my "Cliche" photo.

They were alive when I took the picture, I just killed 'em afterwards so no one else could re-create my shot.

I try to incorporate that as part of my workflow as often as possible.

But you, Doc, are a sinner.
At the very least, you could have used their wings for clothing or shoes, eaten their meat, and built tools out of their, uhh, exoskeletons(?).
05/12/2006 05:16:00 PM · #9
I guess im guilty too.
05/12/2006 05:20:13 PM · #10
DrAchoo, you're more than welcome to come to my house to eradicate those pesky ladybugs this fall! You could probably gather enough of those stupid bugs from my property to make a refrigerator-sized sculpture.

Great shot, by the way -- congrats on the blue!
05/12/2006 05:24:56 PM · #11
I must confess. Mine died too.



Though the dumb bugs would have died anyway.
They were out on the deck in January.

Mine were sacrificed for a measly 6.5 score and 9th place though.
05/13/2006 01:30:26 AM · #12
Congratulations on the high score and ribbon, Jason. I don't have any problem with the ladybug killing - Inede's first place shot with several dead ladybugs is one of my favorite site ribbon winners.

Has the comment that you are calling out in the threads been edited to be less rant-worthy? If so, please disregard what I've written below. I don't see more than one or two comments that are negative about the dead ladybugs, and the ones that are negative are quite mild and not angry comments - at least that's how I read 'em. I don't see the "lightning rod" here.

Using the disclaimer that everone is entitled to their opinion, you've called out the commenter by saying their position is hypocritical. While I have no problems with killing ladybugs for a shot, I don't see why a different opinion has to be called out for ridicule in a forum thread.

We all want more comments (except the mean ones of course). But the comment you're bringing up isn't particularly rude or mean, so I don't understand what the rant can contribute other than discouraging people from leaving their opinions for fear of being called hypocritcal. This is the rant forum, which means you have zero obligation to make a thread that contributes anything, but is the difference of opinion between you and one commenter really worth a rant?

Anyway, congratulations once again on your ribbon. I hope you don't take my post in the wrong way, because it's not my intention to spoil your fun - I enjoy much of your work and site participation. Also, maybe I'm just in a good mood right now and missing more comments calling you a killer... I just didn't interpret any of your other received comments in that way.
05/13/2006 01:41:04 AM · #13
If you ask me, which nobody has, there IS a moral distinction to be made, albeit a fine one: the incidental and unavoidable taking of a bug's life is one thing, and taking bugs and killing them for an artistic "whim" is another altogether. It's not a distinction I'D make; I couldn't care less if a few bugs here and there give their lives for Art and Virtual Ribbons.

But I do agree with puzzled that it's a perfectly valid, not-hypocritical position to hold, and I certainly wouldn't get exercised over someone expressing that opinion to me.

R.
05/13/2006 01:46:03 AM · #14
heh, thanks puzzled. This would be the first thread SC needs to move OUT of the Rant forum. ;)

I was mostly venting. I wasn't really posting so that we could all ridicule the commenters. I was mainly defending my position. Now that I look back, it does seem like fewer comments than it originally did. I think when the come through originally they seem magnified and multiplied. I am, however, not used to being called "cruel and insensitive".

Oh well, so I'm not a very good ranter. Dammit!
05/13/2006 02:34:56 AM · #15
I just wish someone killed all the ladybugs in the world so we can stop seeing them in these photos. :P
05/13/2006 07:30:17 AM · #16
Thanks, Yanko, for making me LOL on this dismal Saturday morning!
05/13/2006 08:14:52 AM · #17
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I am, however, not used to being called "cruel and insensitive".


[funnin]
You kill people-biting, annoying insects?

Your cruelty runs deep Doc, deep as the Tonga Trench. You will be vilified in the annals of DPC lore, spoken of only in hushed whispers when others aren't close by. Your name, when spoken aloud, will cause pain.

Insensitivity I can't comment on, that sounds more like a personal problem.

:P

[for the overthetop impaired, I'm funning the good Doctor]

[/funnin]

Anyhoo doc, just don't do the same for the SP and you'll be good to go :)
05/13/2006 10:41:39 AM · #18
Originally posted by alfresco:

Anyhoo doc, just don't do the same for the SP and you'll be good to go :)


OK, I promise not to hurt any bugs for the SP. You have my word.
05/14/2006 03:16:59 PM · #19
I don't understand - How did you glue them back together again after stomping on them :-)

It's funny what sets off comments I guess - Since you are fine with it then take it as a complement that your photo generated such feelings in the viewers.
05/15/2006 07:28:37 AM · #20
Hey Doc,

You got off easy. Only 50 Genera! My classes were much higher 100 Genera and at least 20 Families in two different classes (regular Entomology and Aquatic Invertebrate Biology). :)
06/02/2006 02:00:19 PM · #21
I had to chuckle at this, because when I saw the shot originally I thought it was no big deal. I like bugs and rarely intentionally kill them, but sheesh, they die every time we walk around outside!
Then about a week after, I was taking shots of several ladybugs doin' their buggy thing outside. One posed very nicely for me, then walked off the edge of the fountain. I warned my daughter not to step on it, since it had been so nice to me, then what did *I* do?? You guessed it!
...bugguts.... I felt sooooo bad!! Then laughed at myself....
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