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05/08/2006 11:51:32 PM · #1
sorry about the topic. Just need to get some attention.
This is a RANT and please treat it as such.

Over and over again we get people saying that DPC is the place to LEARN about photography. But I realize at some time, it is slowly evolving into a digital-photo-editing (or enhancement) site more than anything else. At most times, I find MYSELF too, doing exactly that. I find myself (guiltily) saying this whenever I compose a photo, "no worries about that distracting element, I cant post-edit it later" or something along that line. I mean, I do know that post-editing is part of the workflow, but from time to time, I do hope I can take that "wow" photo without relying on post-editing, be it adjusting a curve, sharpening, or things as simple as cropping.

So, the other day I started this suggestion for a one-time DPC challenge but it seems some people get all defensive at the idea of not being allowed to post-edit their photos. Why is it so? Are you so dependant on your post-editing to create a wonderful photo?

Yes, some argue that we can submit a photo without editing into the challenges. But it wouldn't be a fair-game now, would it? It can be fair only if everyone is "forced" to do it by means of a rule (ont-time only) for that challenge.

Come on guys, do yourself a favour - test your own capability with your camera. Dont edit anything on your computer. In-camera processing is fine.

THIS IS A DARE TO YOU.

//end of RANT.
05/08/2006 11:53:26 PM · #2
Just out of curiosity, how many of the photos in your portfolio are unedited?
05/08/2006 11:58:25 PM · #3
Everyone knows that all MY shots are straight out of the camera. I don't even own foto... photostore... Photoshop - yeah that's it. I don't even have a computer. I only recently made the transition to digital from chiseling my images from stone tablets.
05/09/2006 12:00:42 AM · #4
Originally posted by mk:

Just out of curiosity, how many of the photos in your portfolio are unedited?


NONE of them.
so what has this got to do with my suggestion for a one-time "no post editing" challenge? Just like a woman suggesting what a man should do - do they need to be a man at one time in their life too?

Message edited by author 2006-05-09 00:02:44.
05/09/2006 12:03:18 AM · #5
It just seems like if you're such a big proponent of no editing, that it allows you to learn and that you can still produce that "wow" photo, that you'd be doing it. So I was curious, that's all.
05/09/2006 12:05:25 AM · #6
it was just a challenge suggestion.

Message edited by author 2006-05-09 00:06:33.
05/09/2006 12:07:37 AM · #7
My bad, then. Most people propose things they are in favor of. If you're not a proponent, then I guess I misunderstood. Anyway, good luck with your dare.
05/09/2006 12:12:07 AM · #8
Originally posted by mk:

My bad, then. Most people propose things they are in favor of. If you're not a proponent, then I guess I misunderstood. Anyway, good luck with your dare.


You are partially right.
I'm in favour of seeing the DPC community try-out something new for once, and possibly forcing myself in doing the same and having it voted upon. Sorry if I had angered you with this suggestion (and Rant) as I do not wish to argue with someone who is Langdon's.
05/09/2006 12:13:42 AM · #9
I'm not angry at all. :)
05/09/2006 12:20:46 AM · #10
Anyway... I like it mostly because I'm not very good at PS. I think forced handicaps like this can be beneficial.

This is similar to the suggestion of a low-res camera challenge or camera phone challenge.
05/09/2006 12:25:54 AM · #11
Originally posted by crayon:

I do not wish to argue with someone who is Langdon's.


I wouldn't. Rumor has it that Langdon has a secret script on here that can shoot 10,000 volts through your mouse right into you. I heard that's what happened to that KPriest guy... too many woody pics or something. ;-)

BTW, I like the idea for the challenge, but what if you shoot RAW? Could you still bump up the contrast or saturation a bit? I imagine the SC would be bombarded with validation requests.
05/09/2006 12:31:37 AM · #12
Originally posted by Telehubbie:

BTW, I like the idea for the challenge, but what if you shoot RAW? Could you still bump up the contrast or saturation a bit? I imagine the SC would be bombarded with validation requests.


RAW is a luxury to most actually. I believe JPEG is universal for most, if not all digital cameras. Just set your camera to shoot JPEG. Resize, and submit.

p/s: on a side note Marc, I totally love this photo of yours.
It's been in my favourites since Feb.
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/29797/thumb/204918.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/29797/thumb/204918.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
05/09/2006 12:31:49 AM · #13
Originally posted by Telehubbie:

I like the idea for the challenge, but what if you shoot RAW? Could you still bump up the contrast or saturation a bit? I imagine the SC would be bombarded with validation requests.


Special rule for the challenge could require shooting in JPG mode.

R.
05/09/2006 12:45:40 AM · #14
I like the idea but you know what will happen? People will just jack up the saturation, contrast and sharpening in-camera to get as close to a DPC-like image as possible. Which is another way of saying they'll just do the same thing they did before to appeal to the voters, except with less fine tuning.

Really, what I'd like to see more rewarded are the photos that have depth instead of the typical ones that are just pretty on the outside if you know what I mean.
05/09/2006 12:48:07 AM · #15
Incidentally, one might expect a challenge such as this to be absolutely dominated by the skilled studio photographers, who if they know their stuff need virtually no post-processing. The landscape photographers would be at a distinct disadvantage because they have so little control over light and environmental variables. (This is why, almost without exception, the great landscape photographers have been great technicians in the darkroom as well.) The street photographers and the candid photographers will do pretty much what they've always done, but the grunge gang will be SOL. The flowers-in-the-garden people will have a pretty manageable task.

But here's the thing: except for the obvious fact that this was shot in RAW, this image is virtually unedited. WB is tungsten, Color Sat is near-max, contrast is low, exposure in the minus-1 range. All of which I could have (and would have, I knew what I wanted) set in-camera for a jpg. But it's not "real". It's bluer-than-real. But it's sort of real: if my house were on the beach, and I sat in it in tungsten light, then stepped out onto the beach, this is what I would have seen until my eyes adjusted, you know?

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30861/thumb/323600.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30861/thumb/323600.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

So, anyway, how do you feel about mucking around with contrast and WB and saturation, to exaggerate some things and suppress others, on from-the-camera shots? If this is allowable, does it really make a difference when it is done? If it's not allowable, are we arguing that only fully-automatic mode can be used for this challenge? And if so, to prove what exactly? I honestly don't understand.

Robt.
05/09/2006 12:49:43 AM · #16
Thanks a lot! I really regret not using it for the Independence challenge. Funny thing, if you look at it another way, it looks like I'm running to push the little bugger off the bike. :-)
05/09/2006 12:57:47 AM · #17
Crayon, correct me if I'm wrong.
I think the main thought behind the suggestion was that the more we learn to do in photoshop the lazier we may tend to become in setup and behind the viewfinder, epsecially true in advanced editing where it doesn't matter if the wineglass had spots or a leaf is sticking out.
I don't find anything wrong with using photoshop in conjunction with good camera skills, as long as we don't depend on photoshop to the detriment of our camera skills and just plain thought and effort when shooting.
It would be an interesting idea, IMO, as much as a personal challenge as anything.

(Personally, since I only have a P&S with no lenses and I am a rank amateur with photoshop I am pretty much forced to think twice/three/four times when setting up a shot. I sometimes greatly envy the equipment most here have, but know that I'm better off where I am until I learn WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY more. Baby steps! :D )
05/09/2006 12:58:33 AM · #18
I think this is a great idea, and personally think it's silly that everyone is getting up in arms. Doesn't sound like anyone is bashing PS, just saying that for ONE TIME, we should step away from it and see what we can really do with JUST the camera.

I think that makes a hell of a challenge for a photog, especially in the digital age. Sure, there's the arguement about darkroom editing and all that, but hey, for one challenge, we can't just decide to use a pic that's direct from the camera? Anyone who doesn't like it wouldn't have to do it, of course.

I think it would be neat to see what people are able to do. Furthermore, I can understand crayon's frustration. This isn't a radical change, it's a challenge suggestion. Same as if someone said, "Hey, let's shoot <insert any idea here>"

*shrug* I'm game. Just my $.02
05/09/2006 01:04:58 AM · #19
I'm confused. Who is getting up in arms over this challenge suggestion?
05/09/2006 01:09:43 AM · #20
Originally posted by yanko:

I'm confused. Who is getting up in arms over this challenge suggestion?

I guess I use the phrase loosely. But if a seperate thread has appeared here in Rant over it, I think that means there has been enough, well, ranting, to qualify.
05/09/2006 01:37:30 AM · #21
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

except for the obvious fact that this was shot in RAW, this image is virtually unedited. ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30861/thumb/323600.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30861/thumb/323600.jpg', '/') + 1) . '


Holy Cow Batman! This is what I'm talking about. Just look at that photo, it's splendid! Looks like you've got a winner if you could recreate something similar, if a low-edit challenge ever takes place. Nice one, Robt. Anyway you mentioned about in-camera adjustments. Well as far as I'm concerned, in-camera processing/tweaks is acceptable as they are done within the limitations of the camera (and the photographer, of course) :)
05/09/2006 01:43:51 AM · #22
I don't understand why there is a difference setting your WB to Tungsten vs doing the same in RAW or getting that color in PS. None of it represents reality but rather the photographer's fancy.

Edited for clarity.

Message edited by author 2006-05-09 01:45:41.
05/09/2006 02:22:13 AM · #23
Originally posted by BeeCee:

It would be an interesting idea, IMO, as much as a personal challenge as anything.


Yes, and if only more people would see it that way too, it would be nice. Having it as a ONE-TIME challenge rule means everyone would play by the same rule too. I'd really like to see what the 6 people in my favourites would submit, and also how some of the other regulars on the site would fare. It's just thrilling! Like MK said, I've never submitted anything unedited myself, and again, having everyone in the same level of playing field (no out of camera editing) just for ONCE would be quite refreshing.

Message edited by author 2006-05-09 02:23:28.
05/09/2006 02:26:49 AM · #24
We had one of those challenges...it was 'The Past' I belive. I'll find it. Ah yes. Here it is.
05/09/2006 02:28:08 AM · #25
Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by BeeCee:

It would be an interesting idea, IMO, as much as a personal challenge as anything.


Yes, and if only more people would see it that way too, it would be nice. Having it as a ONE-TIME challenge rule means everyone would play by the same rule too. I'd really like to see what the 6 people in my favourites would submit, and also how some of the other regulars on the site would fare. It's just thrilling! Like MK said, I've never submitted anything unedited myself, and again, having everyone in the same level of playing field (no out of camera editing) just for ONCE would be quite refreshing.


As bear has already mentioned he could have done that type of editing in camera so whether it was in camera or post editing does it really matter?

I doubt if a lot of people would want to enter a challenge like that, to me it would be like only doing half the job.

There is no level playing field in a challenge like this because of the different cameras we use and as far as being refreshing I think it would be more frustrating then anything.
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