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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> Extended ISO range (e.g. 20D, 5d etc) - why?
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04/21/2006 09:13:11 PM · #1
With the 20D you can "extend" the ISO out from the standard 1600 to 3200. With the 5D you can also do that, but additionally you can extend out from 100 to 50.

Can anyone explain why these are "extended" and not just "the ISO range of the camera is ....."

Specifically .... is there any disadvantage, or negatives in general, if you use this extended range?

I just do not understand why they are any different.

Any ideas?


04/21/2006 09:20:29 PM · #2
Well, unlike what people did with the Digital Rebel (hack the software), you don't need to hack the 20D to get this "extended" ISO, it is simply a custom feature you have to activate from the menu. The advantages of this ISO (3200) is obviously that it makes it the sensor more sensitive to light, the disadvantage is the noise. As far as the lower ISOs (50) on the 5D can be used when you are shooting in bright daylight or with strobes and want as least noise as possible. I don't know how you activate those on the 5D. I hope that answer your question.

June
04/21/2006 09:28:30 PM · #3
Originally posted by Natator:

With the 20D you can "extend" the ISO out from the standard 1600 to 3200. With the 5D you can also do that, but additionally you can extend out from 100 to 50.

Can anyone explain why these are "extended" and not just "the ISO range of the camera is ....."

Specifically .... is there any disadvantage, or negatives in general, if you use this extended range?

I just do not understand why they are any different.

Any ideas?


I'd imagine this would be so that people shooting in Auto ISO have an option to have the camera choose from the range where they won't get an errant image shot in 3200 when they would find that amount of noise unacceptable.
04/21/2006 09:31:00 PM · #4
Originally posted by MrXpress:

I'd imagine this would be so that people shooting in Auto ISO have an option to have the camera choose from the range where they won't get an errant image shot in 3200 when they would find that amount of noise unacceptable.

Sort of like an adult proof cap on a pill bottle, huh? :-)
04/21/2006 09:48:24 PM · #5
Originally posted by MrXpress:

I'd imagine this would be so that people shooting in Auto ISO have an option to have the camera choose from the range where they won't get an errant image shot in 3200 when they would find that amount of noise unacceptable.


Canon does not have auto ISO so that is not it :-/.
04/21/2006 09:50:44 PM · #6
Originally posted by robs:

Originally posted by MrXpress:

I'd imagine this would be so that people shooting in Auto ISO have an option to have the camera choose from the range where they won't get an errant image shot in 3200 when they would find that amount of noise unacceptable.


Canon does not have auto ISO so that is not it :-/.


Canon DOES have Auto ISO. If you set your camera to auto (the green rectangle)the camera sets the ISO to auto.

June
04/21/2006 09:58:03 PM · #7
Originally posted by Chiqui:

Originally posted by robs:

Originally posted by MrXpress:

I'd imagine this would be so that people shooting in Auto ISO have an option to have the camera choose from the range where they won't get an errant image shot in 3200 when they would find that amount of noise unacceptable.


Canon does not have auto ISO so that is not it :-/.


Canon DOES have Auto ISO. If you set your camera to auto (the green rectangle)the camera sets the ISO to auto.

June


I think if you have the camera set to auto the ISO wont go higher than 400, at least im pretty sure of that with my 350D
04/21/2006 10:01:08 PM · #8
Originally posted by json:

Originally posted by Chiqui:

Originally posted by robs:

Originally posted by MrXpress:

I'd imagine this would be so that people shooting in Auto ISO have an option to have the camera choose from the range where they won't get an errant image shot in 3200 when they would find that amount of noise unacceptable.


Canon does not have auto ISO so that is not it :-/.


Canon DOES have Auto ISO. If you set your camera to auto (the green rectangle)the camera sets the ISO to auto.

June


I think if you have the camera set to auto the ISO wont go higher than 400, at least im pretty sure of that with my 350D


Possibly, but it does have auto ISO.
04/21/2006 10:05:15 PM · #9
Guess I have never used the green square then.... I was thinking like the Nikons but anyhow... thanks for the correction.
04/21/2006 10:12:44 PM · #10
Interesting tidbit. When I bought my S2 IS, the mode selector was on Auto in the box.

When I bought the 30D, the mode selector was on P.

It seems like on the S2, auto is the recommended shooting mode for it's target users. With the 30D, it's more of a necessary evil...

I haven't used it yet and don't really intend to. Less than 200 shots on the camera so far and I have actually shot in Av, Tv and M modes though...

Oh what fun!

As to why the 5D doesn't have ISO 50 in the normal range, I have NO idea. I almost wonder if there is a technical issue. Perhaps it's not an actual 50 ISO made the same way the other modes are, but rather a fudged ISO modified in-camera.

Maybe it's just to rub the other Manufacturer's noses in it as most other brands don't feature as low as ISO 50.

04/21/2006 10:26:54 PM · #11
Originally posted by eschelar:

...As to why the 5D doesn't have ISO 50 in the normal range, I have NO idea. I almost wonder if there is a technical issue. Perhaps it's not an actual 50 ISO made the same way the other modes are, but rather a fudged ISO modified in-camera...


You've hit the nail on the head. Both ISO 3200 and ISO 50 are software-only "virtual ISO" settings. You can get the same result as ISO 3200 by shooting ISO 1600 with exposure compensation set to -1 stop, then pushing in RAW conversion.
ISO 50, is similar to shooting ISO 100 and overexposing 1 stop, then pulling back in post. Both ISO 3200 and ISO 50 have somewhat less dynamic range than the "real" ISO settings.
04/21/2006 11:44:51 PM · #12
Originally posted by kirbic:

You've hit the nail on the head. Both ISO 3200 and ISO 50 are software-only "virtual ISO" settings. You can get the same result as ISO 3200 by shooting ISO 1600 with exposure compensation set to -1 stop, then pushing in RAW conversion. ISO 50, is similar to shooting ISO 100 and overexposing 1 stop, then pulling back in post. Both ISO 3200 and ISO 50 have somewhat less dynamic range than the "real" ISO settings.


AHA! I have looked high and low trying to find out what made ISO 50 and 3200 so special that they had to be put into a custom function. Now this makes a lot of sense! Just curious, where did you go to find this out???
04/22/2006 01:05:35 AM · #13
Silly DWterry... don't you know? Kirbic buys his information on the street. In the form of powdered floppy discs, zip drives, jazz drives and Smart media cards - you know, the untraceable forms of storage that nobody ever uses anymore. He mixes them with a trinary paste including hexagen and binon gas and injects the paste into the one remaining borg implant that nobody has seen or knows about.

It's pretty much a direct line to the source.
04/22/2006 08:39:15 AM · #14
Does the 30D have this option? Will I somehow be able to convince it to shoot at 50 ISO?
04/22/2006 09:48:23 AM · #15
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:

Does the 30D have this option? Will I somehow be able to convince it to shoot at 50 ISO?


No 50, but it does have the H, er, 3200.
It's interesting to note than I did some high ISO test shots on the 30D and 3200 is sharper than 1600...

(quickie handheld shots to judge noise)

a bit of neat image and sharpening on the ISO 800 imaage and you get


04/23/2006 03:58:56 AM · #16
Originally posted by Chiqui:

Well, unlike what people did with the Digital Rebel (hack the software), you don't need to hack the 20D to get this "extended" ISO, it is simply a custom feature you have to activate from the menu. The advantages of this ISO (3200) is obviously that it makes it the sensor more sensitive to light, the disadvantage is the noise. As far as the lower ISOs (50) on the 5D can be used when you are shooting in bright daylight or with strobes and want as least noise as possible. I don't know how you activate those on the 5D. I hope that answer your question.

June


Thanks for that June :) However, that was not really the question. I fully understand ISO values .... I just did not understand why these two were a special setting, and not just a part of the standard ISO range for the camera.

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by eschelar:

...As to why the 5D doesn't have ISO 50 in the normal range, I have NO idea. I almost wonder if there is a technical issue. Perhaps it's not an actual 50 ISO made the same way the other modes are, but rather a fudged ISO modified in-camera...


You've hit the nail on the head. Both ISO 3200 and ISO 50 are software-only "virtual ISO" settings. You can get the same result as ISO 3200 by shooting ISO 1600 with exposure compensation set to -1 stop, then pushing in RAW conversion.
ISO 50, is similar to shooting ISO 100 and overexposing 1 stop, then pulling back in post. Both ISO 3200 and ISO 50 have somewhat less dynamic range than the "real" ISO settings.


Thanks :)

I suspected it was something like that, that the 3200 and 50 were not strictly true ISO values.

So, that then begs the question .....

What is the advantage of using them rather than, say 100 and overexposing? I would guess that it is simply easier that way.

Great answer there Kirbic, thanks :)



Message edited by author 2006-04-23 04:44:49.
04/23/2006 07:15:05 AM · #17
Originally posted by Chiqui:



Canon DOES have Auto ISO. If you set your camera to auto (the green rectangle)the camera sets the ISO to auto.

June


NOT THE ISSUE. And of the auto-program modes have auto-ISO but it is limited to 400 ISO.

I had read somewhere that the 3200 is not true 3200,that certain aspects are boosted for added sensitivity but not everything is adjusted like 100-1600. I don't recall the details nor am I aware of their accuracy. But I think that's why it's "boost" and displays as an H
04/23/2006 08:05:26 AM · #18
If you overexpose you may blow the highlights, where as the ISO3200 allows a normal exposure setting.
04/23/2006 08:19:34 AM · #19
Interesting discussion but a couple of points worth mentioning:

1) The 5D does NOT have auto ISO since it only has creative modes. The other cameras you mentioned does have auto ISO as already is mentioned.

2) The best dynamic range of both the 5D and 1D Mark II cameras is ISO 200. ISO 100 will actually limit the dynamic range somewhat. I believe this is also the case with the 20D, 30D and 350D.

With ISO 200 you obviously also get better pictures in lower light conditions.

These cameras are so lo-noise already that the added noise from ISO 100 to ISO 200 is a non-issue.

My cameras always stays on ISO 200 unless I need to increase the value.

FWIW,
::are
04/23/2006 11:18:06 AM · #20
ARE, thanks for that info, it seems sensible to me. I will give it a whirl. I have mostly been shooting ISO 400 and some 800 and 1600 (and the fun bits between), shooting a bit loose on the ISO as I don't have a set foundation. I have been flitting back and forth all across the range. I will try stabilizing a bit by working around ISO 200. It will also help me to get a bit more used to exposure settings vs perceived ambient light.
04/24/2006 08:22:32 PM · #21
Originally posted by Are_62:

My cameras always stays on ISO 200 unless I need to increase the value.



Very interesting, and thanks for the info there. With the 20D my default was ISO 100. With the 5D (due tomorrow, courier permitting) I was trying to work out if I would use 100 or 50 for studio work.

Most of the stuff I do that matters will be with studio strobes, portraits etc. I always set the camera to ISO 100 as the amount of light available is never an issue, if anything I always have too much.

Given what you said there would you still suggest that ISO 200 would be the best setting?

In the course I did they said to go 100 .... but the instructor was film based, not digital, and thus would not have been aware of the dynamic range issue.

Really interested in the answer here :)

By the way, where did you get that tidbit of info, is it in the manual?
04/24/2006 08:40:54 PM · #22
Originally posted by Chiqui:

Originally posted by json:

Originally posted by Chiqui:

Originally posted by robs:

Originally posted by MrXpress:

I'd imagine this would be so that people shooting in Auto ISO have an option to have the camera choose from the range where they won't get an errant image shot in 3200 when they would find that amount of noise unacceptable.


Canon does not have auto ISO so that is not it :-/.


Canon DOES have Auto ISO. If you set your camera to auto (the green rectangle)the camera sets the ISO to auto.

June


I think if you have the camera set to auto the ISO wont go higher than 400, at least im pretty sure of that with my 350D


Possibly, but it does have auto ISO.

If it isn't in the creative mode it isn't an actual setting. An auto iso setting would let you set at least one other variable. Tv for example sets the shutter speed at constant and then the AV is automatic. Putting the camera into idiot mode isn't what we want when we ask for an Auto Iso setting. Oh and the 1D doesn't have an automatic mode at all :-(

edit: apparently the 5D doesn't have auto modes either, didn't know that!

Message edited by author 2006-04-24 20:42:19.
04/25/2006 03:21:04 PM · #23
Originally posted by Are_62:


1) The 5D does NOT have auto ISO since it only has creative modes. The other cameras you mentioned does have auto ISO as already is mentioned.

According to the on-line maual, the 5D does have full-auto (the green square) and it sets the ISO within the range 100-400.

04/25/2006 03:47:39 PM · #24
I am sure I already know the anwser to this (since I know the camera pretty well). But does the 10D have this option? I would love to be able to get 50 iso as my new min. :-)
04/25/2006 04:29:19 PM · #25
Originally posted by jent:

I am sure I already know the anwser to this (since I know the camera pretty well). But does the 10D have this option? I would love to be able to get 50 iso as my new min. :-)


Only the 5D has the ISO 50. So I guess you need to buy one. ;)
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