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03/26/2006 12:37:23 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by seenosun:
If a child lacks the maturity to understand the human body is accepted as an art form on this site, they shouldn't be making punitive votes on Nude images in Challenges. That would actually prevent an unfair bias in voting! |
This may come as a shock to you seenosun.... but I would wager that there are adults (or reasonable facsimiles thereof) who would dole out punitive votes on any nude images........just ask fotomanforever, he knows..
Ray |
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03/26/2006 12:37:28 AM · #52 |
I had a comment on my Low Key entry from a young member asking why it was nude?? I'm supposing it's the same member. My subject isn't nude....it's just hard to see clothing because of the low light!
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03/26/2006 12:39:33 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by seenosun:
If a child lacks the maturity to understand the human body is accepted as an art form on this site, they shouldn't be making punitive votes on Nude images in Challenges. That would actually prevent an unfair bias in voting! |
Some users don't like black and white, an accepted art form, and vote them lower.
Some users don't like shallow depth of field, an accepted artistic technique, and vote it lower.
Some users don't like nudity, an accepted art form, and vote it lower.
How is one any different than the other?
~Terry |
That is not the same thing. That is not a direct answer to my statement. I am taking about children that don't have the maturity to understand nudes are an accepted art form on this site. I'm not talking about personal taste. If an adult doesn't like nudes they at least are able to make a mature assesment of the image.
The adult at least knows they aren't going to catch cooties from viewing the image. |
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03/26/2006 12:41:07 AM · #54 |
Perhaps we should consider a sub-site for kids.
Related thread.
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03/26/2006 12:41:25 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by paddles:
OK, that is a reasonable argument to make. However, the decision to prevent all children from seeing nudity here assumes that all children (or at least, a significant majority) would make punitive votes on nude images. I don't think that is an assumption that can be safely made on the basis of one or two votes/comments.
I'd also point out that anyone who posts anything that is controversial in any sense (nudity, patriotism, et al) or sacrifices certain technical aspects for artistic aspects risks being voted down by people who either dislike the controversial matter or don't see the artistic statement. Any artist, no matter how great, risks being misunderstood. |
I totally agree. Just look at this image and it's comments.
Look at the variance in comments and the hugely low votes. Most people misunderstood this image for what it was. And my score suffered. Some people saw it purely as a vulgar and unnecessary shot of someones breasts and voted it low. Others worked out that it was a butt and either voted it high for the trickery obtained or voted it low because they don't like looking at male butts. And then you have the others that just do the pick a random number to vote this image on. Others did vote it according to what they saw in the technical side.
But my point is...that it isn't just children that vote with their eyes...it is adults as well. And just as you cannot say that all adults vote like that....the same with children...they don't all vote like that.
Someone said 'one size doesn't fit all' and they are so right. Everyone is different...children and adults. Everyone raises their children with different morals. Everyone has different beliefs. When people sign their children up on DPC they understand the responsibility they are taking. It isn't up to everyone else to decide what someone elses child should and shouldn't be seeing.
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03/26/2006 12:43:01 AM · #56 |
Every person has their own preferences.
When you put an image out there to get the OPINIONS of others, you are asking for a collection of biases to be applied to your image.
DPC viewers tend to be biased more against crappy pictures with bad focus and poor light with distracting backgrounds.
Your family might have much less of a bias.
I've seen people poring over each other's snapshots at gatherings and pointing excitedly at certain pictures saying things like "oooh that's a good one!" when I can clearly see that NO thought was put into anything concerning lighting, focus, composition, DOF....
If you want other people's opinions, you are bound to get just that. |
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03/26/2006 12:52:45 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by seenosun:
If a child lacks the maturity to understand the human body is accepted as an art form on this site, they shouldn't be making punitive votes on Nude images in Challenges. That would actually prevent an unfair bias in voting! |
This may come as a shock to you seenosun.... but I would wager that there are adults (or reasonable facsimiles thereof) who would dole out punitive votes on any nude images........just ask fotomanforever, he knows..
Ray |
While it is not a shock to me ... it is not reflected in my current score. In fact I have only received 1 negative comment out of 17 (the one from the child in question) and have received 405 views. It seems to be a very well received image by everyone except the child.
Edit to add: the image has been selected as a favorite by 3 members.
Message edited by author 2006-03-26 00:55:08. |
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03/26/2006 01:00:11 AM · #58 |
Add me to the list of parents who are perfectly happy to let their kids see a nude photo.
My daughter isn't into voting yet, neither is she particularly active on DPC, but this is about the bit that children "should be stopped from seeing nudity"
My 11 year old would just roll her eyes and move on. I certainly wouldn't want her to see porn at her age, but the gentle, tasteful nudity we see on HERE is so different.
How could I have a problem with that? I want her to grow into a well adjusted person, not struggle with a bunch of hang-ups.
I also appreciate the fact that I, as her mother, get to make that choice, not have it made for me by a total stranger. |
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03/26/2006 01:09:19 AM · #59 |
So because of one person's opinion you want to change the site.
What if there was one comment objecting to your photo because of their religious veiws -- should we weed out voters of that religion? There are some cultures who object to any photo of people at all ... |
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03/26/2006 01:13:04 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
... Now here's an idea.
When you select the option to PM a minor member, perhaps there could be an option to PM the parent? |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
... To address the point about PMs to minors: the parents can use pretty much any email address they want when they register the child's account -- it need not actually be the child's personal account -- so they'd definitely be able to pre-screen all PMs if they desire. This is actually one advantage of NOT having an internal mail system, but rather using anonymously-directed email. |
On a similar note, has it been considered making parent accounts? That is, an account that is the parent of other accounts, one that can control what options are available -- such as PM's?
I still don't know that there is a need -- but it's worth considering if there is. Not a matter of DPC doing the monitoring -- just giving the parents the tools needed to monitor.
David
Message edited by author 2006-03-26 01:13:48.
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03/26/2006 01:13:24 AM · #61 |
I like it. Nudity that is.
Message edited by author 2006-03-26 01:13:51.
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03/26/2006 01:22:27 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by seenosun:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by seenosun:
If a child lacks the maturity to understand the human body is accepted as an art form on this site, they shouldn't be making punitive votes on Nude images in Challenges. That would actually prevent an unfair bias in voting! |
This may come as a shock to you seenosun.... but I would wager that there are adults (or reasonable facsimiles thereof) who would dole out punitive votes on any nude images........just ask fotomanforever, he knows..
Ray |
While it is not a shock to me ... it is not reflected in my current score. In fact I have only received 1 negative comment out of 17 (the one from the child in question) and have received 405 views. It seems to be a very well received image by everyone except the child.
Edit to add: the image has been selected as a favorite by 3 members. |
And so is revealed the real reason that you object.
You are discouraged because so many people like your picture, but one person could dislike it based on the core aspect of nudity.
Well, as was mentioned elsewhere, this is exactly the reason that the nudity filter is NOT included in the voting stage. People ARE swayed by nudity in both directions. And if the people who don't like it were removed from the equation, the balance would be shifted and nudity bearing pictures such as yours would be unfairly influenced upwards merely on the merit of their content.
Just because MOST or MANY people like your image, and your score is high isn't license to think that your image is therefore beyond the reaches of those who don't like it.
To state that this is due to the age of the single person who made a comment to this effect is a form of self-justification that nobody should dislike the image because so many people do.
It doesn't work like that.
With the opinions of people, there are no absolutes. |
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03/26/2006 01:25:37 AM · #63 |
No... My first request was to have the specific vote removed. I was told no by the SC. If a child is voting like a troll because they have an immature response to Nudity then something should be done to keep the voting fair.
I'm always open to suggestions. Preventing a child from viewing, voting and commenting on Nudity in challenges was mine. If this childs commenting history is checked you will see a pattern emerge on ANY image with skin let alone nudity. The comments are CHILDISH. It is not fair to allow punitive voting if you aren't old enough to understand what you are voting on. Treat the voter like a troll and wipe out the votes. |
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03/26/2006 01:28:46 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by seenosun:
It is not fair to allow punitive voting if you aren't old enough to understand what you are voting on. Treat the voter like a troll and wipe out the votes. |
If not understanding what you are voting on is a valid argument... many members shouldn't be voting on Low Key.
Edit: That was not aimed at anyone.
Message edited by author 2006-03-26 01:30:18.
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03/26/2006 01:28:47 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by seenosun:
No... My first request was to have the specific vote removed. I was told no by the SC. If a child is voting like a troll because they have an immature response to Nudity then something should be done to keep the voting fair. |
So you think no adults have the same behavior?
Message edited by author 2006-03-26 01:29:37.
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03/26/2006 01:31:39 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by seenosun:
If a child is voting like a troll because they have an immature response to Nudity then something should be done to keep the voting fair. |
I am NOT a child, yet my voting on nudity varies.
There are times where I feel it is called for and appropriate for that particular challenge, and I will give a high score for a good photo.
Other times, in my personal opinion, the nudity was inappropriate for that challenge, and I will NOT give a high score, no matter how good the photo was (just ask fotoman about that one *grin*).
So even though I am neither a child nor a prude, there are still times where I give a low score to a photo containing nudity. |
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03/26/2006 01:35:50 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by Beetle:
Other times, in my personal opinion, the nudity was inappropriate for that challenge, and I will NOT give a high score, no matter how good the photo was (just ask fotoman about that one *grin*).
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I'll give that a ditto. I certainly have the resources to do nudes for every single challenge. It's easy enough.
But, a nude would definitely have to have a REASON to be in a challenge to avoid MY DNMC vote.
Message edited by author 2006-03-26 01:37:56.
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03/26/2006 01:38:14 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by seenosun:
No... My first request was to have the specific vote removed. I was told no by the SC. If a child is voting like a troll because they have an immature response to Nudity then something should be done to keep the voting fair.
I'm always open to suggestions. Preventing a child from viewing, voting and commenting on Nudity in challenges was mine. If this childs commenting history is checked you will see a pattern emerge on ANY image with skin let alone nudity. The comments are CHILDISH. It is not fair to allow punitive voting if you aren't old enough to understand what you are voting on. Treat the voter like a troll and wipe out the votes. |
Who says the voter doesn't understand what they are voting on? Is it not a valid opinion for someone to think that that bodies should be private just because it differs from your own? |
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03/26/2006 01:38:35 AM · #69 |
i'm through with this ... It's convenient to respond to a sentence instead of a complete statement when trying to make an argument against my position. i will only submit photos of flowers, rainbows and puppies from now on so I won't offend anyone.
edit to Add: not refering to MK's response with the "convenient" remark above - it came in while I was typing. But I am still through with this thread.
Message edited by author 2006-03-26 01:41:02. |
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03/26/2006 01:39:02 AM · #70 |
A child voting like a troll?
How could this even be related at all?
A troll votes completely independent of the image. They are voting low for some personal reason of their own that likes to attack others. They couldn't care less if it was a stunning image or a blurry NokiaPhone pic taken by accident in someone's pocket.
A child voting LIKE A CHILD giving a low vote because they didn't like the nudity is A RESPONSE TO YOUR IMAGE.
The point that so many people here have been trying to make is that NOT EVERYONE WILL LIKE YOUR IMAGE. While that sometimes does suck, and oftentimes there are great images that don't do very well in voting for disappointingly mundane reasons such as these, we as the deliverers of such media must understand that as our audience expands, the chance that our image will be rejected by some will also increase.
Heck, there's probably a fair number of people who are REALLY huge fans of Dogs Playing Poker pictures or Unicorns on Velvet that would vote most of the top pictures here low.
That's not really got anything to do with your image though. It's just the audience that you are performing to.
Parents have to be aware of the characteristics of this site when choosing to allow their children a chance to view the images here, but we also have to be aware that our audience also includes all sorts.
As as mentioned by earlier posts, if you get to the level where your work gets displayed in a gallery of some sort, you will also have to face the same type of audience.
So get thicker skin already. If you really feel that something needs to be done, perhaps you can PM the parent of this child and explain that you were disappointed by such a response and you hope that they could explain a little bit to their child about the role of nudity in art and life.
By no means should the opinions of a minority stop you from taking a picture the way you want to express it.
For that matter, it's worthy of question if the opinions of a majority should stop you either, but in that case, one would assume that the opinions of your viewers would probably be immaterial.
Message edited by author 2006-03-26 01:45:31. |
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03/26/2006 01:42:31 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by seenosun:
Filters should be included for ALL images that contain nudity. Why is that so hard to understand? |
It is not DPC's place to police nudity on the website regarding children, it is the parent who agrees to the waiver to allow their children to have an account and access the website that has that responsibility.
Why is that so hard to understand? |
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03/26/2006 01:43:53 AM · #72 |
i see nudity every day when i take a shower. I think if I ever have kids they'll see nudity too when they take a shower.
people are way too uptight about this stuff, it's just the rest of the body with no clothes. I don't know how it is so damaging?
with life there are risks. when you walk down the stairs you might fall, when you vote on dpc you might see some nudity.
violence is something way more to worry about, since its the implication of hurting people. nudity doesnt imply harm to someone, neither does sex.
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03/26/2006 01:47:05 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by seenosun:
i'm through with this ... It's convenient to respond to a sentence instead of a complete statement when trying to make an argument against my position. i will only submit photos of flowers, rainbows and puppies from now on so I won't offend anyone. |
Offend away, man. I certainly don't hold back offensive when I feel it fits the challenge.
Certainly one of my most potentially offensive shots. Combining sexuality and religion can be a dangerous cocktail.
But, here's how I see art. Art is to provoke emotion. Whenever you provoke a primitive side of the human mind, you will get wildly varied responses.
Some art is pretty, just to be pretty. But, the art that is remembered isn't always the pretty stuff.
Message edited by author 2006-03-26 01:50:04.
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03/26/2006 01:49:07 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by queanbeez:
ok maybe i shouldnt have said technical...i child who is lets say under 13? probably doesnt understand what a good photo is and what isnt. Especially at 7, 8, 9? they are attracted to shiny, funny, or bright things. they dont look for skill.
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Okay, I had to comment on this one since I have a 10 year old who is registered here and looks at the shots sometimes, she started with me a couple of years ago. The age you are thinking is probably more along the line of 3, 4 or 5. I work with kids in the school for Junior Achievement year round and I have found the kids have an amazing eye for what is beautiful and good in a picture and what is crap. I also do the Career day at the school and I got called out on some of my crappier shots that I threw up to fill space, by the 7 and 8 year olds. So they can tell a good shot from a bad, some have a better eye than I do, like my daughter.
Ellie is a natural, even though she's my down to earth, work hard, nose to the grindstone kid while Melissa really has to work at a shot and she's my artistic, head in the clouds, were you talking to me kid. It always amazes me what they see in a photo compared to what I see.
As for the nudes, heck it's part of life, done tastefully I have no problem with my kids seeing it. Like Judy's daughter sometimes they say, "ewwwwwwwwwwwwww" and sometimes they say "WOW!" But when they say ewwww I ask why and we talk about it.
Deannda
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03/26/2006 09:15:23 PM · #75 |
I'm having basically the same experience as the original poster, except my picture contains something other than nudity that they consider objectionable. One commented on not liking the content but did make positive comments on technicals. Another, not only very young but also a new member just that day, left a very blunt comment and equally low vote. It did bother me, because I feel this is a reasonably decent picture. But after thinking about it, I realise that I did succeed with what I was aiming for in this challenge, and that was to cause some sort of emotion/reaction.
I agree that some members may be young enough to not be able to give an informed vote/comment on certain subject matter, but also some of us are not experienced enough as photographers to give an informed vote/comment on the technical aspects (including me). Should those people also be excluded from voting?
We know before we enter challenges that anyone and everyone is able to vote on them, we know (or have the opportunity to learn) that children are able to vote. We know we're opening ourselves to a variety of ages, experience levels, and opinions. We may not always like or agree with all of their opinions, but if not, we're always free to not post or to join another site with different regulations/requirements.
If parents sign the waiver for under-13's then it's their responsibility to monitor their children's viewing here if there's something objectionable, not the site's. That's what the waiver is for.
No, there should not be a nudity filter for children, any more than there should be an alcohol filter or a religion filter. There SHOULD be monitoring, mentoring and guidance by parents of younger children.
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