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 02/20/2006 08:55:32 PM · #26
Originally posted by photodude:
In the real world, unless you only drive it on a wide open freeway at a steady 60MPH, that car is never going to get 22 MPG


Well last fall in Georgia my family rented 2 300C's with the 5.7 Hemi's and drove from Atlanta to Albiny and back with in the town driving in Albiny. Filled both up at the pump in Jonesboro (just south of Atlanta) and both got 23 MPG.
 02/20/2006 08:59:19 PM · #27
Exactly, thats pure highway driving. Real world everyday driving for most people tends to be more like the EPA city number.
 02/20/2006 09:10:51 PM · #28
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

If it's just about money, investing in cars is not a good idea.

If I had my 240Z back, I would not trade it for any of the three cars you mention, regardless of dollar value. It's about a passion for a certain vehicle. That's my point, that the value of a car, to the right individual, transcends dollars. You seem to have missed that. There are people who just love certain cars.


No..that is my point exactly................................
 02/20/2006 09:31:17 PM · #29
That challenger looks like they may have actually done something right for a change. The GTO and Charger they came out with were really unimpressive. I still want a new Mustang. I bought a 2004 V6 model but after test driving a 2005 GT I was ready to trade mine in. Not economically feasible though as I would have lost several thousand dollars on the trade.
 02/20/2006 09:39:54 PM · #30
Originally posted by photodude:
Exactly, thats pure highway driving. Real world everyday driving for most people tends to be more like the EPA city number.


It wasn't pure wide open highway, parts were but also in town + rush hour in Columbus both ways. But the point is the MDS allows it to change efficiency during cruising, also it runs the TCC Torque Convertor Clutch which also aids in efficiency during cruise. Of course if your hammering on it in stop and go traffic at every light it gets worse gas mileage. I just love the technoligy, more high tech the better:)
02/20/2006 10:12:42 PM · #31
Originally posted by hokie:
Japanese cars have no heart.

Minus a Skyline here or a Supra Turbo there...very little to be enthusiastic about in japanese automakers. Even their luxury cars are just souless.

I can't see them remaking the latest Mitsubishi or Honda whatchamacallit in 30 years like they are doing with the Challenger, Camaro or Mustang.

I drive german but I admire the new Challenger, Camaro and Mustang remakes and could see owning one.

LOL well it is made by Daimler Chrysler:) What is American made anymore? Its a false belief that Mopar/GM/Ford are all American, kinda a stereotype that has long since past. As far as don't have heart, I guess how many Americans actually keep a car for its lifetime? In reality people go to the dealership find an eyecatching car, rent(lease) it for 3 years and repeat the cycle. Build quality doesn't really matter since its under warrenty, and traded in quickly.

For me I buy used vehicles, most of them fall in my lap for next to nothing, they just need some work, and I fix up some and sell others. Now when it comes to Luxury cars Cad/Lincoln don't hold a candle to a Lexus in quality. BMW, Audi, Mercedes are over priced for what you get, lose value quick, and parts are expensive.
 02/20/2006 10:21:00 PM · #32
Build quality does matter. A warranty doesn't get you to work. Constantly dropping off your car at the dealer has got to be a royal pain in the ass, not to mention waiting on the side of the road for the tow truck.

The big three's cars have one thing in common regardless of whether they are assembled in Mexico, the USA, or Canada - they are put together by the UAW. Results speak for themselves.

Most buyers do not lease. I believe the average new car is kept something like 6-7 years.
 02/20/2006 10:34:50 PM · #33
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Four words: Escort, Chevette, Pinto, Caviler.

My Japanese classic or soon to be classic list:
Toyota Supra
Toyota Celica
Datsun 240 or 280Z
All Toyota FJ landcruisers
Not a fan but have a big following - Suzuki Samari
Honda NSX
Mitsibishi Eclipse
Mazda RX-7
80's Toyota trucks
Toyota MR2
I've even seen people collect the original Honda Civic's and Accords.
...and I'm probably missing 42 others.
Plenty of heart, sole and originality.

Most of the cars you've listed, including the American ones, are economy cars. Some are upscaled versions that perform better but as a group they are not really a very good comparison to muscle cars. And no one has mentioned the Corvette, which some people would say was the ultimate muscle car.
02/20/2006 10:40:22 PM · #34
Originally posted by photodude:
Build quality does matter. A warranty doesn't get you to work. Constantly dropping off your car at the dealer has got to be a royal pain in the ass, not to mention waiting on the side of the road for the tow truck.

The big three's cars have one thing in common regardless of whether they are assembled in Mexico, the USA, or Canada - they are put together by the UAW. Results speak for themselves.

Most buyers do not lease. I believe the average new car is kept something like 6-7 years.


The Last article I read said 50% lease, and of those that do lease they are 78% likely to lease the next one. Another thing about quality, Toyota and GM have a joint venture plant in California, called the NUMMI plant (New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc) it was rated Toyotas worse plant in quality control, Yet it was rated the best GM plant. A big thing I have problem with is how Mopar/GM/Ford hide quality control problems from the public instead of addressing them, and some are big time safety defects that really need to be fixed (I could give multiple examples) and alot of the Japanise automakers address it right away.

For me why spend 20-40K for a car that after 6-7 years is worth 5K at best. Besides why is it a 35k new 2001 MB ML300 worth only 10K, yet finding a 2001 Toyota Rav4 (New 20K) at 10K is hard find. Personally I hate wasteing money, and nice an used is fine by me.
 02/20/2006 10:43:22 PM · #35
The NUMMI plant which made corollas and chevy version, is a UAW plant. Hmm... any surprise there that it would be lowest in quality for Toyota?
 02/20/2006 10:43:38 PM · #36
Leasing is huge in Calif. I'll have to find the article but people who finance autos keep them on the average of 42mos. How many people do you know can buy a new Porsche or Mercedes or other luxury vehicles every couple of years. You'll see more and more leasing as the fixed rates continue to go up. The average price for an auto is 32k. In fact Orange county/LA accounts for more leasing than the entire west coast.


Message edited by author 2006-02-20 22:47:53.
 02/20/2006 10:52:08 PM · #37
Did you know the Toyota corolla is the oldest car still in production today?
 02/20/2006 10:53:51 PM · #38
What about the Corvette. Although there was no car in 1983
 02/20/2006 10:59:05 PM · #39
Originally posted by coolhar:

Most of the cars you've listed, including the American ones, are economy cars. Some are upscaled versions that perform better but as a group they are not really a very good comparison to muscle cars. And no one has mentioned the Corvette, which some people would say was the ultimate muscle car.


Corvettes have a following no doubt about it, I like um because most the owners don't mind putting a ton money into them keeping them up to par. But they are the test bed for GM technoligy, I remeber having a customer come in White Knuckled and scared after his 97 Corvette had the problem where it decided to lock the Steering wheel in the present position driving down the highway, no way to turn off on that just slow down and hope. Of course it has a magnesium steering wheel that almost always breaks taking it off (big Bucks), not to mention that was the first year of drive by wire (have a few Accel pedals laying around). Last but not least they decided to put the Engine control computer right behind the Passenger front wheel, tucked behind the wheel by a thin peice of plastic, Tire blowouts, any rock that decided to penatrate that cost big bucks:)

Oh the NUMMI Plant makes lots more than Corollas //www.nummi.com/facts.html
 02/20/2006 11:08:48 PM · #40
It's rare that I agree with anything George W has to say, but in this case I reckon you guys have simply gotta listen to what he and many many others are telling you about the use of fossil fuels.

There is simply NO justification in this day and age for manufacturers to be pumping out 6.1L V8s. R&D money needs to be spent on technologies like hydrogen fuel cells etc, not reinventing new/old body styles to wrap around engines/drivetrains not far removed those of the 70's. In the meantime, the economy/safety/performance/value for money of the better quality 4 cylinder vehicles from many manufacturers is nothing short of remarkable. For the record, I've been driving 4 cylinder Subarus for a number of years now and I would put the build quality etc up against anything else of a similar price.

All of this is just my opinion of course... :)

Q.
 02/20/2006 11:21:41 PM · #41
Originally posted by Qiki:
It's rare that I agree with anything George W has to say, but in this case I reckon you guys have simply gotta listen to what he and many many others are telling you about the use of fossil fuels.

There is simply NO justification in this day and age for manufacturers to be pumping out 6.1L V8s. R&D money needs to be spent on technologies like hydrogen fuel cells etc, not reinventing new/old body styles to wrap around engines/drivetrains not far removed those of the 70's.

Actually they are totally different than the 70's all the engine control is handled by a computer that optimizes air to fuel ratio and also keeps track of the emissions it produces and those emission devices. The Hemi this thread is refering to uses MDS so it basically is as efficent as a 4 cylinder at speed. Besides Fuel cells are alot harder to implement compared to Hybrid, and Bio-Diesel.

Originally posted by Qiki:
In the meantime, the economy/safety/performance/value for money of the better quality 4 cylinder vehicles from many manufacturers is nothing short of remarkable. For the record, I've been driving 4 cylinder Subarus for a number of years now and I would put the build quality etc up against anything else of a similar price.

All of this is just my opinion of course... :)

Q.

I hope its not a 2.2Liter or 2.5L because they had a rash of bad head gaskets and that requires pulling the motor. Subaru has updated the headgasket now. But on some of the 2.2L the block would also crack around cylinder #4 allowing coolant into the cylinder. But they are dependable otherwise for the most part.

Message edited by author 2006-02-20 23:23:01.
 02/20/2006 11:44:36 PM · #42
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Actually they are totally different than the 70's all the engine control is handled by a computer that optimizes air to fuel ratio and also keeps track of the emissions it produces and those emission devices. The Hemi this thread is refering to uses MDS so it basically is as efficent as a 4 cylinder at speed. Besides Fuel cells are alot harder to implement compared to Hybrid, and Bio-Diesel.



Fuel cells, bio, hybrid.....all of the above. That's where the R&D should be going.

As for the fuel efficiency of the hemi motors, I read a review of the Jeep hemi done here in Oz a few months ago. Combined city/country cycle fuel economy was around 15L/100km (and the country tesing done here is usually long, flat roads at a constant speed which make for flattering fuel economy results). My Subaru gets around 9.5L/100km city only cycle. There is no comparison! "Basically as efficient as a 4 cylinder" is a nice marketing line tho.

Q.
 02/21/2006 12:53:13 AM · #43
Muscle Car ... I'm still holding on to my 1998 Trans Am. I can't belive anyone would want anything much fater unless they were at a drag stip. 160 mph is no problem with it, once even faster on a straight road in the desert of New Mexico. Kinda fun passing a hitchhiker about 8 feet away at over 150 mph, I bet I really gave him a spin. ;)
 02/21/2006 12:53:48 AM · #44
Originally posted by photodude:
In the real world, unless you only drive it on a wide open freeway at a steady 60MPH, that car is never going to get 22 MPG


That car isn't made to get 22mpg. Anybody worried about gas mileage or the price of gas shouldn't be buying one in the first place. My 5.7 HEMI struggles to get 15mpg. My lead foot averages about 10mpg. I bought it for the power, not the gas mileage.
 02/21/2006 01:04:34 AM · #45
Originally posted by dsmeth:
Originally posted by photodude:
In the real world, unless you only drive it on a wide open freeway at a steady 60MPH, that car is never going to get 22 MPG


That car isn't made to get 22mpg. Anybody worried about gas mileage or the price of gas shouldn't be buying one in the first place. My 5.7 HEMI struggles to get 15mpg. My lead foot averages about 10mpg. I bought it for the power, not the gas mileage.


Um Dude, unless your totally flooring that thing at every stop light and driving it like you stole it, something is wrong, what model of car is it in? 10mpg is way low for that 5.7L.. Thats like V-10 8.0L truck mileage with a bobcat trailer...
 02/21/2006 01:16:10 AM · #46
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Originally posted by dsmeth:
Originally posted by photodude:
In the real world, unless you only drive it on a wide open freeway at a steady 60MPH, that car is never going to get 22 MPG


That car isn't made to get 22mpg. Anybody worried about gas mileage or the price of gas shouldn't be buying one in the first place. My 5.7 HEMI struggles to get 15mpg. My lead foot averages about 10mpg. I bought it for the power, not the gas mileage.


Um Dude, unless your totally flooring that thing at every stop light and driving it like you stole it, something is wrong, what model of car is it in? 10mpg is way low for that 5.7L.. Thats like V-10 8.0L truck mileage with a bobcat trailer...


Um Dude, it's a 1500 Ram short box with a 3.92 gear. On the window sticker it was only rated for 12mpg in the city and 16mpg Highway. I drive it everyday. I think I oughtta know what my mileage is.
It's a gas hog. I pulled my camper to Colorado with it and got 7.5mpg. I think I have a pic of it somewhere in here.


Message edited by author 2006-02-21 01:21:45.
 02/21/2006 01:20:33 AM · #47
Originally posted by dsmeth:
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Originally posted by dsmeth:
Originally posted by photodude:
In the real world, unless you only drive it on a wide open freeway at a steady 60MPH, that car is never going to get 22 MPG


That car isn't made to get 22mpg. Anybody worried about gas mileage or the price of gas shouldn't be buying one in the first place. My 5.7 HEMI struggles to get 15mpg. My lead foot averages about 10mpg. I bought it for the power, not the gas mileage.


Um Dude, unless your totally flooring that thing at every stop light and driving it like you stole it, something is wrong, what model of car is it in? 10mpg is way low for that 5.7L.. Thats like V-10 8.0L truck mileage with a bobcat trailer...


Um Dude, it's a 1500 Ram short box with a 3.92 gear. On the window sticker it was only rated for 12mpg in the city and 16mpg Highway. I drive it everyday. I think I oughtta know what my mileage is.


A truck I see:) Not a car, a little difference in Mileage Besides, thats not the Hemi with MDS... 2 different animals... VIN #8 = D on yours the Hemi in the Car 5.7 is VIN H...


Message edited by author 2006-02-21 01:21:55.
 02/21/2006 01:24:21 AM · #48
looks nice but it sure is heavier than heck

has 425 hp, 420 lb-ft of torque, and a six-speed manual transmission. So geared, with its 4,100 pound weight, it can do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds (with 20 inch wheels on front and 21 inch wheels on back), and runs the quarter mile in 13 seconds flat; top speed is 174 mph (limited by wind resistance), while gas mileage is estimated at 14 city, 20 highway, very good compared with the original Challenger. Brakes are more effective than the original - stopping from 60 mph can be done in 133 feet.
//www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/challenger.html

Message edited by author 2006-02-21 01:25:12.
 02/21/2006 01:26:23 AM · #49
Here's the gas guzzling beast Matt


Message edited by author 2006-02-21 01:28:14.
 02/21/2006 01:28:17 AM · #50
With my Trans Am 5.7L V-8 I get about 18 mpg around town stop and go and on the freeway cruising cross-county at 90 mph I can maintain 20 mpg. AND I do hot rod it alot. Big efficiant powerful engine can give great gas mileage because they don't have to work as hard pushing it through the wind. 14-20 on the new Challenger sound about right. My guess on the freeway if ya drove it like grandma at 65 mph it would do better.
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