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02/16/2006 10:47:14 AM · #1 |
I just watched Citizen Kane for the 20th time and have a question about achieving the great depth of field in the opening snowglobe sequence. For those who haven't seen the movie - there is a shot of a snowglobe in extreme closeup that takes up a good part of the frame, in sharp focus. In the background a nurse walks in the door about 20 feet away, but she is also in sharp focus, no background blur at all. Can anyone tell me how this can be achieved? Wouldn't there be background blur even at a very small aperture with such an extreme closeup?
Thanks for any help. |
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02/16/2006 11:20:32 AM · #2 |
| I'm just leaving for school, but I have some info on that. When I get back, if no one answers, I'll try to. |
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02/16/2006 11:28:46 AM · #3 |
Found this on the Internet: Jon Jost on depth of field
It mentions Citizen Kane - the main thing is using a wider angle lens - they will have more possible DOF that a telephoto. So wide angle, lots of light, stopped down all the way: you can get DOF from ~ 1 foot to infinity. |
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02/16/2006 11:32:11 AM · #4 |
To answer your question, Aperture has a bit to do with it, but also focal length of the lens and prespective distance between lens, foreground and background. This makes a P&S a little better equiped for this than some dSLR setups, because P&S cameras have really short focal lengths.
I haven't watched Citizen Kane in a while, but I'd venture to guess that the scene you are referring to was shot with a fairly wide lens close down quite a bit.
If you want to try something like this with your Oly, try zooming out as far as you can, set Aperture Priority to the smallest aperture and do some experiementing with placement of foreground and background objects.
Remember a person in the background fills quite a bit more frame than a snowglobe, so the distances will be fairly large... need plenty of room.
Message edited by author 2006-02-16 11:35:39.
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02/16/2006 11:37:40 AM · #5 |
| thanks guys...i am actually using a canon eos elan 7 film camera for what i want to do...i just got a 50mm macro so that is what i most likely will use, although i have a 28-105 zoom that i can also use. the olympus is what i use for this site, since thats the only digital camera i have. |
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02/16/2006 11:40:03 AM · #6 |
if i remember my film major friends discussions correctly, a lot of the DOF in CK was made possible by custom lenses...and several other technical innovations and techniques were invented by Welles.
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02/16/2006 12:00:16 PM · #7 |
| Actualy its quite intricate. He used split focus. Not sure exactly how it is done. From what I remember from film school its a double exposure where you shoot with half of the frame covered and then refocus and shoot again with the first half covered. If you pay attention you will notice the fuzzy line dividing the frame where the diferent focuses meet. You will also find it in other shots throughout the movie. I have caught the fuzzy line in other movies where there was a shot with "impossible" DOF. |
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02/16/2006 12:06:17 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by gutocardoso2003:
Actualy its quite intricate. He used split focus. Not sure exactly how it is done. From what I remember from film school its a double exposure where you shoot with half of the frame covered and then refocus and shoot again with the first half covered. If you pay attention you will notice the fuzzy line dividing the frame where the diferent focuses meet. You will also find it in other shots throughout the movie. I have caught the fuzzy line in other movies where there was a shot with "impossible" DOF. |
Hmmmm ... interesting... that's something to play with there.
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02/16/2006 12:22:29 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by th3ph17:
if i remember my film major friends discussions correctly, a lot of the DOF in CK was made possible by custom lenses...and several other technical innovations and techniques were invented by Welles. |
Let's give credit where credit is due, Wells could have never achieved the mastery of craft had it not been for Gregg Toland's genius work in that film. Well's even gave Toland equal billing in the closing credits. The scene with the globe was split focus, but the incredible scene of DOF was the one in which starts with the young Kane is playing in the snow and the camera pans back into the window. Everything in frame remains in focus including both interior and exterior, a great astonishment considering how slow the film stock was in the 40s. |
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02/16/2006 12:25:34 PM · #10 |
Not sure about the scene in question, but in many movies the special effects are rather creative - first, you assume that globe is a normal globe - it may be 4X or 10X the size you think it is.
In lord of the rings, there is scene with a death pyre and a horse rides into the scene, in a building - well, they could not get the horse to go near the fire, so they did a neat trick I still plan to use one of these days - you have the pyre, and to the left about 30 feet is a fire. in between the camera and pyre is a piece of plate glass angled to reflect the fire - the scene is short thru the plate glass so to speak, with the fire image superimposed on the glass. neat trick, and no digital shenanigans needed.
matte painting is one trick long used in film. NONE of the ceilings in Gone with the Wind and much of the backgrounds are just paintings on glass, again held in front of the camera or two exposures made and stripped in.
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02/16/2006 01:28:40 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by hyperfocal:
Originally posted by th3ph17:
if i remember my film major friends discussions correctly, a lot of the DOF in CK was made possible by custom lenses...and several other technical innovations and techniques were invented by Welles. |
Let's give credit where credit is due, Wells could have never achieved the mastery of craft had it not been for Gregg Toland's genius work in that film. Well's even gave Toland equal billing in the closing credits. The scene with the globe was split focus, but the incredible scene of DOF was the one in which starts with the young Kane is playing in the snow and the camera pans back into the window. Everything in frame remains in focus including both interior and exterior, a great astonishment considering how slow the film stock was in the 40s. |
right right, so let me rephrase, He had a vision of how he wanted to shoot, which his amazing technical guy invented new lenses for.
I just watched the special features segments on the models and special effects for Dune [lynch version] on the new extended edition DVD. Amazing things can be done using mattes, models and a good eye. A Lost art. |
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02/16/2006 01:48:13 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Not sure about the scene in question, but in many movies the special effects are rather creative - first, you assume that globe is a normal globe - it may be 4X or 10X the size you think it is.
In lord of the rings, there is scene with a death pyre and a horse rides into the scene, in a building - well, they could not get the horse to go near the fire, so they did a neat trick I still plan to use one of these days - you have the pyre, and to the left about 30 feet is a fire. in between the camera and pyre is a piece of plate glass angled to reflect the fire - the scene is short thru the plate glass so to speak, with the fire image superimposed on the glass. neat trick, and no digital shenanigans needed.
matte painting is one trick long used in film. NONE of the ceilings in Gone with the Wind and much of the backgrounds are just paintings on glass, again held in front of the camera or two exposures made and stripped in. |
LotR - good examples of non-digital shennanigans! If I remember correctly, there is a shot in Fellowship where Frodo drops the ring in the snow - we see the ring up close and frodo in the background. I think I remember from the commentary that the ring for that shot was quite a bit bigger than "normal".
Forced perspective is another technique they used quite well. And models, and different scale props...
But then they also used digital stuff quite effectively - gollum and hordes of orcs and lots of things.
Might be a good example of what DPC tries to achieve - photography with digital assist. |
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