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02/08/2006 01:24:11 PM · #1
I love music. I love many different types of it as well. My collection contains everything between Beethoven and Rob Zombie. A closer look reminds me that I have some Alabama, Kitaro, Bob James, Howlin' Wolf, Tangerine Dream, Pink Floyd, and some Nina Simone as well. It's a very diverse collection of music.

I very rarely buy anything off the shelf that I haven't previously sampled in some fashion. My tastes are varied, but they still manage to expand as time progresses. New sounds come around and I like some of them. Others I don't care as much for. If I like it, I'll buy it.

What makes me like certain types of music and not others? I like the way the sounds make me feel. I often listen to upbeat music when I'm driving. Boston and Van Halen are good for the road. I like to sing along. If I want to go dancing, I like country music. Big & Rich and Trace Adkins make me wanna get up and move. The impressionistic piano of Claude Debussy makes excellent dinner music with candlelight and a bottle of wine. It's not obtrusive and it's quite calming. Chopin's nocturnes are excellent sounds to lull me to sleep. Each of these types of music has a different effect on me, but each of them has its place and time.

I have been a student of guitar for almost 30 years. I had several years of piano lessons as a child. I also participated in school band (a variety of brass instruments) in junior high and high school. I understand music composition and theory on a very deep level. I take some amount of pride in my own musical skills, even though I don't take music performance as seriously as I used to. In a nutshell, I understand how music is made. My aunt, on the other hand, knows no music theory and she can't read a note on a printed page sheet music. Listening to her play the piano would make you think she was a true virtuoso. She can play anything she can hear with masterful skill. I used to ask her if she thought she would gain anything by actually studying music theory and learning how the music is made. She would just grin at me and ask me if I didn't like what I was hearing when she played. I was always speechless at this rebuttal. She's one of the few people with a simple God given gift. She would be considered an 'outsider' in the art community for her lack of formal education and training. She would be considered a master if one just listened to her recordings and didn't know anything about her.

Anyway... when I listen to music, I never find myself asking how it was made. The make and model of the instruments, the education of the performers, and the techniques used by the sound and recording engineers never enter my mind. What I hear is all I think about, and I either like it or I don't. It's all about the end result. I probably wouldn't enjoy listening to John Williams composing the Star Wars sound tracks. As much as I would enjoy sitting in a room with Johann Sebastian Bach, I doubt that I would like listening to early 18th century choirs rehearsing a cantata. I do, however, really enjoy the finished products. I think if I got wrapped up too much in how these things are created, I woudn't be able to enjoy them for what they are as much.
02/08/2006 01:28:04 PM · #2
Well Said!

Bravo Maestro! Bravo!
02/08/2006 01:35:53 PM · #3
I tried to make that same point on another thread. We seem to be too wrapped up in process when the finished product is really the only important thing.
Ultimately all we trying to do is bring our own vision to screen or paper.
Take Scalvert's fantasy flying rug as an example, which is perfectly safe because no one is arguing it.
But does it really make a difference if the rug was layered against a background photo, or a virtual background photo?
Both are layers, one is expensive and one is digital.
Shouldn't the execution of the idea and the finished product be the important thing?
02/08/2006 01:38:54 PM · #4
Originally posted by Ombra_foto:


Shouldn't the execution of the idea and the finished product be the important thing?


It should be and it is in many places.
02/08/2006 01:50:13 PM · #5
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by Ombra_foto:


Shouldn't the execution of the idea and the finished product be the important thing?


It should be and it is in many places.

As long as the camera is the primary tool...sure. Taking something from the camera and manipulating it to the point that it's a different product from the original isn't, at least here, and I am glad it is that way. I don't have major digital manipulation skills, don't care to, and have no desire to compete in that arena. That's why I'm here at DPC and NOT at other alternative venues (Deviant Art, etc...).
02/08/2006 01:53:48 PM · #6
I wonder if a piano is the primary tool used to create a lot of the music i listen to that sounds like a piano?
02/08/2006 01:58:51 PM · #7
there never comes a time when music stops being music

but you must a agree that there is a difference between a photograph and a graphic ... no?
02/08/2006 02:06:36 PM · #8
Originally posted by hopper:

there never comes a time when music stops being music

but you must a agree that there is a difference between a photograph and a graphic ... no?


I personally like to consider photography an art. What sorts of rules are applied to painters, sculptors, and musicians?
02/08/2006 02:10:04 PM · #9
Originally posted by hopper:

there never comes a time when music stops being music

but you must a agree that there is a difference between a photograph and a graphic ... no?


The camera is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.
The digital darkroom is another tool.

The difference between a photograph and a graphic is the the photograph starts in the camera.. It doesn't end there.
02/08/2006 02:11:18 PM · #10
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

What sorts of rules are applied to painters, sculptors, and musicians?


not sure, but most likely paintings are not allowed in a sculpture contest

ps... please take this as friendly John, but if i remember correctly, you stepped down from the SC because you weren't happy with all the post processing that was being allowed. I wonder what changed your thinking? .... or perhaps I'm remembering all wrong, which is very possible.
02/08/2006 02:13:15 PM · #11
Originally posted by Ombra_foto:

The difference between a photograph and a graphic is the the photograph starts in the camera.


i disagree ... but i respect your opinion
02/08/2006 02:34:02 PM · #12
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I wonder if a piano is the primary tool used to create a lot of the music i listen to that sounds like a piano?


Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Anyway... when I listen to music, I never find myself asking how it was made.


Hmmm?

Just kidding, I get your point :)

02/08/2006 03:53:40 PM · #13
Many people say that too much study kills spontaneity in music, but although study may kill a small talent, it is a must to develop a big one. - George Gershwin
02/08/2006 03:56:19 PM · #14
Originally posted by hopper:


ps... please take this as friendly John, but if i remember correctly, you stepped down from the SC because you weren't happy with all the post processing that was being allowed. I wonder what changed your thinking? .... or perhaps I'm remembering all wrong, which is very possible.


That's not why I left the SC.. it was for totally unrelated reasons.

My thinking has changed and continues to do so. I think it probably does with most people here on DPC over time. In this environment, the 'status quo' is very difficult to change because of the diversity of participants. We have everything from first time beginners to some very advanced photographers. When it comes down to hashing out how things operate, everyone wants the 'rules' and mindsets to benefit their own level of development. Lots of people don't want unrestricted editing simply because they don't know how to do it themselves or they aren't interested in the nudge it would provide for them to learn something new. They may or may not say it this way, but they seem to prefer the final images to more closely resemble what comes out of the camera rather than what it could be with some artistic latitude applied to it.

Photography is an interesting beast when compared to other art forms. Some people don't consider photography to be an art. It's a simple documentary science to some, and in these cases, artistic latitude simply isn't required or desired. Others use a photograph (or photographs) as a building block for something greater.

My own portfolio doesn't contain any images that really fit into the category of unlimited editing or what some would consider to be digital art. It's just not something that I personally do. Just about everything I have done in the past maintains standard 'photographic integrity'. My photos look like photos. They don't appear to be digital creations that are loosely based on photos or parts of other images combined for the final result. This type of photographic art is something that I would love to learn more about though. I would prefer to learn it here on DPC rather than going to some other community where I feel like a stranger to dive into a new area for myself. DPC currently does not promote the advanced capabilities of digital photography (and digital art) that are a natural extension of what we do here now. It's always possible to put something in a forum and ask for feedback, but that isn't nearly as strong or productive as learning it in a challenge format where there are a lot of people participating.

I have learned a majority of what I know about photography here on DPC. I would simply love to continue that progression here rather than somewhere else.
02/08/2006 04:01:31 PM · #15
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

... I would simply love to continue that progression here rather than somewhere else.

That's all fine and dandy, but let's not ruin what has drawn many to this site initially - basic photography (Open challenges), sometimes with a twist (Member challenges). I would hate to see digital "Art" overtake the core concept here at DPC.

Perhaps, if you must have it at DPC rather than elsewhere, an additional layer could be added in the form of another challenge. I've heard others mention an "Unlimited, no rules" type challenge for just this purpose.
02/08/2006 04:05:41 PM · #16
Originally posted by glad2badad:

[quote=jmsetzler]

Perhaps, if you must have it at DPC rather than elsewhere, an additional layer could be added in the form of another challenge. I've heard others mention an "Unlimited, no rules" type challenge for just this purpose.


That's exactly what I would love to see.
02/08/2006 04:22:03 PM · #17
I think it eventually comes down to a decision...
Do you want to be a technician, or an artist?


02/08/2006 04:23:42 PM · #18
Originally posted by Ombra_foto:

I think it eventually comes down to a decision...
Do you want to be a technician, or an artist?


There is nothing cut and dried like that about it.
02/08/2006 04:47:04 PM · #19
Originally posted by Ombra_foto:

I think it eventually comes down to a decision...
Do you want to be a technician, or an artist?


Why not both? Was not Michelangelo a great technician AND artist? Just look at the Statue of David. He had to be a technician to even think about creating art from the slab of stone.

Just My 2cents
02/08/2006 04:58:18 PM · #20
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Originally posted by Ombra_foto:

I think it eventually comes down to a decision...
Do you want to be a technician, or an artist?


Why not both? Was not Michelangelo a great technician AND artist? Just look at the Statue of David. He had to be a technician to even think about creating art from the slab of stone.

Just My 2cents


I don't think that's the issue. Nobody's arguing that an artist does not need to develop his technique in order to "master" his art. Nobody's arguing that most great artists are not also masters of their techniques. The distinction here would be as to whether one ever rose above technique, transcended technique. There are plenty of masterful technicians who create forgettable work.

There's a fear being expressed here that DPC is ignoring "inspiration", as it were. There are those who argue that this site is not about "art", it's about "craft", and that "artists" have other venues in which they may pursue their course. It's been expressed many times, by any number of people, that it's a natural state of affairs that folks will come to DPC, learn the "basics" (whatever those are) and then somehow "graduate" into a larger, more artistic world leaving DPC behind, and that this is a Good Thing.

Others, like Setzler and me, wonder why DPC should remain so arbitrarily restricted. We think it would benefit the entire community if we could keep these more-skilled practitioners of the art of photography involved and interested, right here in DPC.

R.

Message edited by author 2006-02-08 16:58:48.
02/08/2006 05:49:11 PM · #21
You took more from what I was saying than I meant but that's ok.

I agree that the art must transcend the technique but it seems to me that if you spend so much time debating what is and isn't art nothing gets done either technically or artistically.

So enough talky talk. Lets all just create to the best of our ability and hope that inspiration continues. At the very least I hope I continue to be inspired as I have been from all here at this great learning venue.

Message edited by author 2006-02-08 19:39:02.
02/08/2006 05:54:54 PM · #22
good answer

... and i stand corrected

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by hopper:


ps... please take this as friendly John, but if i remember correctly, you stepped down from the SC because you weren't happy with all the post processing that was being allowed. I wonder what changed your thinking? .... or perhaps I'm remembering all wrong, which is very possible.


That's not why I left the SC.. it was for totally unrelated reasons.

My thinking has changed and continues to do so. I think it probably does with most people here on DPC over time. In this environment, the 'status quo' is very difficult to change because of the diversity of participants. We have everything from first time beginners to some very advanced photographers. When it comes down to hashing out how things operate, everyone wants the 'rules' and mindsets to benefit their own level of development. Lots of people don't want unrestricted editing simply because they don't know how to do it themselves or they aren't interested in the nudge it would provide for them to learn something new. They may or may not say it this way, but they seem to prefer the final images to more closely resemble what comes out of the camera rather than what it could be with some artistic latitude applied to it.

Photography is an interesting beast when compared to other art forms. Some people don't consider photography to be an art. It's a simple documentary science to some, and in these cases, artistic latitude simply isn't required or desired. Others use a photograph (or photographs) as a building block for something greater.

My own portfolio doesn't contain any images that really fit into the category of unlimited editing or what some would consider to be digital art. It's just not something that I personally do. Just about everything I have done in the past maintains standard 'photographic integrity'. My photos look like photos. They don't appear to be digital creations that are loosely based on photos or parts of other images combined for the final result. This type of photographic art is something that I would love to learn more about though. I would prefer to learn it here on DPC rather than going to some other community where I feel like a stranger to dive into a new area for myself. DPC currently does not promote the advanced capabilities of digital photography (and digital art) that are a natural extension of what we do here now. It's always possible to put something in a forum and ask for feedback, but that isn't nearly as strong or productive as learning it in a challenge format where there are a lot of people participating.

I have learned a majority of what I know about photography here on DPC. I would simply love to continue that progression here rather than somewhere else.
02/08/2006 11:37:03 PM · #23
Since this thread is about music......

Can any music expert here convince me that John Williams did NOT steal his Star Wars imperial march theme from the main theme of the second movement of Dmitri Shostakovich's Symphony #1 in F, written about 50 years earlier?

Williams develops the theme differently, and of course not as effectively, as Shostakovich, but it still sounds plagarized.
02/09/2006 09:45:33 AM · #24
Originally posted by frychikn:

Since this thread is about music......

Can any music expert here convince me that John Williams did NOT steal his Star Wars imperial march theme from the main theme of the second movement of Dmitri Shostakovich's Symphony #1 in F, written about 50 years earlier?

Williams develops the theme differently, and of course not as effectively, as Shostakovich, but it still sounds plagarized.


Listen to Holst's Planets suite and you will spot a dozen or more themes that are remarkably similar to SW themes...!
02/09/2006 10:03:43 AM · #25
I think it would be great to at least try something more advanced in terms of digital art within DPC.

I'm no master when it comes to PS but I have found that my photography has become DPC centric, perhaps to a fault. My eye and ideas seem to be mitigated by advanced editing Challenge rules even when I'm not shooting for a Challenge. It's an odd mindset to have locked into. Shooting using techniques...in camera, always searching for things that I can use in Challenges with limited editing rule-sets keeps me very honest but is something I really need to grow away from. There's a lot more out there and DPC has been amazing for me so far but I fear that soon I will need to go in a different direction very soon or stagnate.

I'm all for anything to prompts or encourages new paths even if it's on a limited basis. Allowing people to stretch their wings would surely be in the sites best interest.

Message edited by author 2006-02-09 10:12:45.
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