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02/01/2006 12:07:03 PM · #1
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amd mine

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BTW,great photos folks,amazing quality !
02/01/2006 12:30:53 PM · #2
Its all the bingo players with their troll dolss. They really have to stop listening to them.

Yes Slippy you shouldn't be listen to your cat either. :D
02/01/2006 12:32:16 PM · #3
it is really sad, each one of those photos took time and effort, and to get a 1 is just pathetic.
02/01/2006 12:35:52 PM · #4
Thanks for posting my shot :), I was also wondering why I got so many votes below 4. I thought it was because people recognized me? I don't know... I don't think any of those images deserve ones.
02/01/2006 12:42:38 PM · #5
This discussion has happened sooooo many times. You all can surely acknowledge that people's tastes differ. What to you is an awesome photo may to some be mediocre, or positively ghastley. People's tastes differ. I got a lesson this the first time my daughter and I voted on a challenge together (she's 13 now). I was shocked - and said so - at some of the photos that she voted down. I regretted my reaction because it was clear that I was only trying to impose my views on her. Clearly the wrong thing to do.

And the psychologist in me has to also point out that our challenges highlight the behavior of a group, and can't tell us anything about the behavior of an individual voter. In virtually any group characteristic or behavior, you will have a range that often falls on a bell shaped curve when plotted. That means you will always have a large middle group, and two smaller "tail" groups. The typical pic in a challenge is always going to get some very low votes and very high votes. It's not trolls (no such creature has even been proven to exist to my satisfaction). It's the expected and normal behavior of a group. Really interesting or controversial pictures will often have very unusual vote distributions (luckily DPC plots it for us after a challenge is over), where there are multiple peaks. However, the group behavior, the bell curve, will virtually always be there. Some pics will get a lot of low votes, most pics will get some low votes, and even excellent pictures will get theirs too.

Not trolls. Not trolls. Just a feature of the behavior of groups. Well understood and predictable.

<whew. got that out of my system>
02/01/2006 12:48:05 PM · #6
<----agrees (and applauds) strangeghost.
02/01/2006 12:48:26 PM · #7
Cool thanks for the lesson Doc!

Best Regards
The Wazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
02/01/2006 12:49:27 PM · #8
Originally posted by strangeghost:

This discussion has happened sooooo many times. You all can surely acknowledge that people's tastes differ. What to you is an awesome photo may to some be mediocre, or positively ghastley. People's tastes differ. I got a lesson this the first time my daughter and I voted on a challenge together (she's 13 now). I was shocked - and said so - at some of the photos that she voted down. I regretted my reaction because it was clear that I was only trying to impose my views on her. Clearly the wrong thing to do.

And the psychologist in me has to also point out that our challenges highlight the behavior of a group, and can't tell us anything about the behavior of an individual voter. In virtually any group characteristic or behavior, you will have a range that often falls on a bell shaped curve when plotted. That means you will always have a large middle group, and two smaller "tail" groups. The typical pic in a challenge is always going to get some very low votes and very high votes. It's not trolls (no such creature has even been proven to exist to my satisfaction). It's the expected and normal behavior of a group. Really interesting or controversial pictures will often have very unusual vote distributions (luckily DPC plots it for us after a challenge is over), where there are multiple peaks. However, the group behavior, the bell curve, will virtually always be there. Some pics will get a lot of low votes, most pics will get some low votes, and even excellent pictures will get theirs too.

Not trolls. Not trolls. Just a feature of the behavior of groups. Well understood and predictable.

<whew. got that out of my system>


I never really get involved in these discussions... the quality of the images in the Best of challenge were awesome. Its the first time in a long time I spent time voting on every image and then revalidating my vote. Even the poor images were quality compared to most challenges.

I totally agree with your assessment of the bell curve and its affect on our challenges. I don't think that is the answer to the question that we really want to know... its more along the lines of why on those tail ends do the voters feel the way they do. I completely understand that there will always be a difference in taste, but what I can't understand is why our taste are different. The only way to determine it is to ask the voters why they voted low or voted high.

I would also add that this is not to alienate them or persecute the differences in personal preference, but to better understand the dynamics of individualism.

EDIT to put me where my mouth is: in the order they are posted in the orignal post

6 - great composition... i felt the image was a tad soft, the sky was to dark and flat, the composition indicates depth... i still feel the image as a whole was a bit flat.

6 - great picture... really like it... went though a few different emotions... ended up really liking the message... i thought the lighting was a bit harsh and the shadows bothered me

6 - good exposure... to me the image is lacking interest...

8 - awesome treatment... great composition... loved the image

7 - awesome image... great composition. great exposure... in the breath of the challenge the image was a bit uninteresting

8 - awesome capture, exposure, great composition... didn't feel the title matched the image... but really loved the treatment

Message edited by author 2006-02-01 12:58:07.
02/01/2006 12:58:06 PM · #9
Originally posted by strangeghost:

What to you is an awesome photo may to some be mediocre, or positively ghastley. People's tastes differ. ...Not trolls.


Riiiiiiiight. That might explain the difference between a higher and lower score, for any human with functioning eyeballs to give shots like these that totally nail the challenge a 1? *sniff* I smell trolls!

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02/01/2006 01:03:23 PM · #10
Originally posted by scalvert:

Riiiiiiiight. That might explain the difference between a higher and lower score, for any human with functioning eyeballs to give shots like these that totally nail the challenge a 1? *sniff* I smell trolls!


Ok now even SC is admitting there are Trolls! I agree, how could anyone with functioning eyes give those a 1? Maybe they are blind? or at least color blind?
02/01/2006 01:06:49 PM · #11
Originally posted by Kivet:

...now even SC is admitting there are Trolls!


There's a difference between admitting and suspecting. I'd certainly be curious to know if the 1 votes on many photos belong to the same few people (and if they're also giving high votes to the lowest-scoring photos), but I don't.
02/01/2006 01:10:58 PM · #12
Ok suspecting then :)
Is there a way to find that out? I assume if it was it would only be visible to D&L.
02/01/2006 01:13:19 PM · #13
Originally posted by pitsaman:

BTW,great photos folks,amazing quality !


Thanks very much pitsaman!! I appreciate it very much that you included my shot in that group.

While I understand everything that strangeghost has said and can reconcile all of it in my mind, the emotional side of me can't understand how quality work warrants a vote of 1, even if the photo doesn't match a voters choice. There are lots of images that I don't necessarily like but there are still some qualities about it that I can appreciate ... composition, lighting, technically, etc.

If it was someone who didn't like the shot, they could offer an explanation in a comment.

I believe in trolls.
02/01/2006 01:54:10 PM · #14
Some people do not understand what is meaningful about scores.

What you should be asking yourselves is why did the MAJORITY vote the way they did on a given image?

The reason a "good" picture gets a 1 is meaningless for helping improve your photography. It is an extreamist view, nothing more. The actual reason will be something as trivial as, "That is the 5th broad I saw walking across a field and I'm giving this one a 1 because I'm sick of seeing pictures like that!" Is that meaningful? No! In some of the images sited the controversy of it alone is sufficient to explain the few low scores. (And why is it that only the low scores are questioned and NEVER the high?)

But why the majority vote as they did on an image is useful information. That is what is meaningful. That will help you understand what connects and does not connect with a diverse population. Most reasons will relate to what photography is all about... photo quality, content and presentation. That knowledge can actually help you improve your photography.
02/01/2006 02:08:02 PM · #15
Comments should be made mandatory for the score below 3 and above 8.
02/01/2006 02:13:56 PM · #16
I always bring this up, but if you don't let people vote in challenges they enter, it should mostly solve the problem.
02/01/2006 02:17:29 PM · #17
Originally posted by shaileshivyas:

Comments should be made mandatory for the score below 3 and above 8.


awesome, that's just what a new photog or a 10 year old kid needs. 300 one-off comments "blurry" "oof" "not in focus" lather, rinse, repeat.
02/01/2006 02:19:30 PM · #18
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by strangeghost:

What to you is an awesome photo may to some be mediocre, or positively ghastley. People's tastes differ. ...Not trolls.


Riiiiiiiight. That might explain the difference between a higher and lower score, for any human with functioning eyeballs to give shots like these that totally nail the challenge a 1? *sniff* I smell trolls!

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Could be trolls but really so what? I can't remember giving a 1 before and certainly never to any of those types of photos but with all the 10s that are giving out like it's going out of style I can sorta see someone doing it just to bring some balance. A photo that's really a 5-6 shouldn't be getting a 10 no more than it deserves a 1. People's opinions do differ VASTLY, myself included. For example, not one of the top 20 photos I ranked made the the actual top 20. Frankly, that made me mad and not one of those photos were mine or any person I even know here. Ok end of rant. :)

Message edited by author 2006-02-01 14:42:57.
02/01/2006 02:39:26 PM · #19
Firstly, I give 1's out in every challenge. I do a first vote on all the pictures, estimating what end of the spectrum I think they belong on, and then I go through and rearrange to make my votes fit a bell curve with the majority of my votes in the 5 range. I think thats the most fair way to do it because some challenges have a lot of terrific pictures (best of 2005, for example) and others have a lot of crappy pictures- but either way there still needs to be a winner. So if there is a challenge with a lot of fantastic pictures- I may give out a 1 to a "good" picture because I just dont like it as much as the rest.

Secondly, for all the "trolls" out there giving 1's, there are equally poor votes of 10 on pictures that don't deserve it. I dont know if these people are trying to counteract the "trolls" but some images just are not 10s.

Thirdly, StrangeGhost is completely right about people having different tastes. On a recent challenge my vote was THE single lowest vote on the picture... and it ribboned. I searched for something in it that perhaps I missed, and to be honest I would give that score again because I just found nothing good about the picture at all. I guess Im a troll... *shrug*
02/01/2006 02:47:56 PM · #20
Originally posted by yanko:

Could be trolls but really so what?


They're like gnats: basically harmless but REALLY annoying. Yes, opinions and tastes differ, but I just don't see how a photo good enough to score over 7 or 8 (the average of LOTS of opinions) can be so bad in anyone's opinion that it should merit a 1- equivalent to the worst photo ever. Yes, the same holds true for awful photos that draw votes of 10 as already noted...

Originally posted by scalvert:

and if they're also giving high votes to the lowest-scoring photos...
02/01/2006 02:50:34 PM · #21
Originally posted by scalvert:


merit a 1- equivalent to the worst photo ever.


See, I dont agree with this at all. A 1 to me does not mean worst photo ever. It means worst photo(s) in challenge.
02/01/2006 02:59:15 PM · #22
Maybe somebody should publish voting guides for the challenges, giving us an acceptible range for each photo entered?
02/01/2006 03:01:24 PM · #23
Originally posted by rebs138:

A 1 to me does not mean worst photo ever. It means worst photo(s) in challenge.


You are free to vote as you like, but shouldn't each image be judged on it's own value? I mean, if there was a challenge where everyone entered a really great (or terrible) photo, it sounds like you would be assigning 1 and 10 votes anyway instead of giving them all really great or really terrible scores. Maybe it's just a different standard, but I'd rather look back on a photo and know that I gave it a 1 or a 10 not because of where it fell within the competition, but because that's what it was actually worth.
02/01/2006 03:08:18 PM · #24
Originally posted by rebs138:

A 1 to me does not mean worst photo ever. It means worst photo(s) in challenge.


This is the logic that gave the best of year shots the same average score as wildlife. The best shots of the year are no better than aa particular subject over one weeks time? That is BS. Each shot should be judged alone, not as part of an bolus of pixels.
I try to judge the shots on their merits. If the worst shot in the group is a six, give it a six. If none answer the challenge topic and lack in technical quality or estetics then none deserve above three.
02/01/2006 03:11:05 PM · #25
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by rebs138:

A 1 to me does not mean worst photo ever. It means worst photo(s) in challenge.


This is the logic that gave the best of year shots the same average score as wildlife. The best shots of the year are no better than aa particular subject over one weeks time? That is BS. Each shot should be judged alone, not as part of an bolus of pixels.
I try to judge the shots on their merits. If the worst shot in the group is a six, give it a six. If none answer the challenge topic and lack in technical quality or estetics then none deserve above three.


The Best of 2005 Challenge wasn't the Best Photos of the Year Challenge. Big difference. People couldn't submit their best if they already entered them before. But even if that wasn't the case did you personally not give a vote of a 10 in the wildlife because it wasn't entered in the Best of 2005?

Message edited by author 2006-02-01 15:13:38.
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