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01/28/2006 02:43:54 AM · #26
One of the reasons why I like free studies is the amount of time allotted to take a shot. Lately, I just don't have the time to go out and find something to shoot to make weekly deadlines. Not complaining, just adding my 2cents. :)
01/28/2006 03:29:17 AM · #27
This is a nifty idea. It's an idea that I'd not thought of before but it does have merit. The attraction is in the ability to have the other 95% of my photos peer-reviewed each month.

Since joining DPC I've been elegible for 32 challenges, have entered 15 but have captured 3,308 images. I would like to be able to share some of the 3,293 other images with the DPC community

I'm not alone I am sure in always having my camera at my side. The light catches something or you see a situation developing and shoot it. It doesn't fit a challenge ... or in my case it does, the one that starts tomorrow.

I would love to have the opportunity of entering the "Best of Jan06", followed by the "Best of Feb06" etc.
I think Robert's right, the reasons for not doing it previously look like they are no longer a concern.

Brett
01/28/2006 04:12:14 AM · #28
I disagree with a notion stated earlier. The themed challenges are not what sets DPC apart for all the others -- there are many themed challenges running on other sites, and even long before there was an internet! Themed challenges are nothing new or novel.

IMO, what sets DPC apart from the rest is the challenges are just a tool -- a tool for learning photography. As Neil mentioned earlier the critiques tha come in the form of comments are the biggest benefit of DPC. With the focus of the challenges on learning photography, the commenters are much more free with the critiques, although there are a healthy dose of 'good shot' comments as well. But seriously, how many here feel a bit cheated if, during a challenge, you don't get at least one comment that displaces your perception of the image, making you look at your own image from a new perspective. I just don't see that freedom to rip the image apart (in a nice way, of course) at any of the other photography sites I've visited. It is this changing of the photographer's view of their own image that allows them to grow.

But the themed challenges are safe. By forcing the photographer to try something new, the photographer knows it is not their best work. They know that, if they had had more time or was better aquanted with the technique the image would be better. Many, many times -- when there are any photographer's comments at all -- I've seen them list what is wrong with the shot. It is safe to have an impromptu shot made to match a theme torn apart -- there is little enough of themselves invested in it. But have you noticed the way the forum posts bristle with excitement when Portraits or Landscape or Nude or B&W comes up, and the 'big guns' come out of the woodwork to compete. Those, and others, are the topics many hold dear to their hearts -- and they compete feircely for the victory.

Free studies are not to be taken lightly -- they are not safe, as the themed challenges are. But what they do provide is an chance for the photographer to pour a part of themselves into an image and present that image for review. Free studies are not for the meek, but they do provide a chance for the photographer to gain a new perspective on work they feel more about. There is an element of danger, but the rewards for those who accept the challenge are potentially high.

Fortunately -- for some -- the site keeps the free studies relatively safe by ensuring any participation in them is impromptu at best. The danger of entry is kept to a minimum by the randomness of not knowing when one is going to show up. But the site also looses a great opportunity to help a photographer expand their perspective and ability by doing so. The themed challenges provide a stretching of a photographer's awareness into new areas, areas perhaps unknown until the challenge -- but free studies provide the opportunity for the photographer to expand not their awareness, but themselves.

The unique atmosphere of welcoming perspective altering alternative views of an image provides DPC an extraordinary opportunity -- so much so, it's a shame it's not taken advantage of.

David
01/28/2006 05:05:08 AM · #29
Must any quarterly challenge be free study?
I thought the O.P.'s point was that he couldn't always get to his computer in time to shoot and submit within a week. If that is so what about the idea of a themed challenge that lasts four weeks? It would allow those on tight time budgets to compete, as well as really letting everybody think through and work on a technique or subject.
01/28/2006 10:00:08 AM · #30
Since I've been doing more professional photography, I've decided not to enter as many challenges for many reasons.
I believe that this happens often at DPC as photographers mature.
As a beginner photographer, I got a lot out of meeting challenges and shooting in different styles. Now, I want to develop my own niche and focus on my professional assignments.
Regular (every month) free challenges are a great opportunity for the professionals here to show what they've been up to, and helps to keep them here in the community.
Posting photos from your portfolio in the forums is a poor substitue for showing an image in a challenge.
Free challenges raise the bar here of what we all need to aspire to, the standard is excellent. Although creativity can often flourish under limited boundaries, I believe that monthly free challenges can also inspire us to reach higher.

Message edited by author 2006-01-28 10:01:21.
01/28/2006 11:21:52 AM · #31
Originally posted by David.C:

I disagree with a notion stated earlier. The themed challenges are not what sets DPC apart for all the others -- there are many themed challenges running on other sites, and even long before there was an internet! Themed challenges are nothing new or novel.

IMO, what sets DPC apart from the rest is the challenges are just a tool -- a tool for learning photography. As Neil mentioned earlier the critiques tha come in the form of comments are the biggest benefit of DPC. With the focus of the challenges on learning photography, the commenters are much more free with the critiques, although there are a healthy dose of 'good shot' comments as well. But seriously, how many here feel a bit cheated if, during a challenge, you don't get at least one comment that displaces your perception of the image, making you look at your own image from a new perspective. I just don't see that freedom to rip the image apart (in a nice way, of course) at any of the other photography sites I've visited. It is this changing of the photographer's view of their own image that allows them to grow.

But the themed challenges are safe. By forcing the photographer to try something new, the photographer knows it is not their best work. They know that, if they had had more time or was better aquanted with the technique the image would be better. Many, many times -- when there are any photographer's comments at all -- I've seen them list what is wrong with the shot. It is safe to have an impromptu shot made to match a theme torn apart -- there is little enough of themselves invested in it. But have you noticed the way the forum posts bristle with excitement when Portraits or Landscape or Nude or B&W comes up, and the 'big guns' come out of the woodwork to compete. Those, and others, are the topics many hold dear to their hearts -- and they compete feircely for the victory.

Free studies are not to be taken lightly -- they are not safe, as the themed challenges are. But what they do provide is an chance for the photographer to pour a part of themselves into an image and present that image for review. Free studies are not for the meek, but they do provide a chance for the photographer to gain a new perspective on work they feel more about. There is an element of danger, but the rewards for those who accept the challenge are potentially high.

Fortunately -- for some -- the site keeps the free studies relatively safe by ensuring any participation in them is impromptu at best. The danger of entry is kept to a minimum by the randomness of not knowing when one is going to show up. But the site also looses a great opportunity to help a photographer expand their perspective and ability by doing so. The themed challenges provide a stretching of a photographer's awareness into new areas, areas perhaps unknown until the challenge -- but free studies provide the opportunity for the photographer to expand not their awareness, but themselves.

The unique atmosphere of welcoming perspective altering alternative views of an image provides DPC an extraordinary opportunity -- so much so, it's a shame it's not taken advantage of.

David

With all due respect David, I think you have overlooked, or at least failed to state the importance of, the key element that separates dpc from other online photography sites. That is the concept of anonymity. We are all a lot more objective when viewing, voting upon, and critiqueing photos if we don't know who's photo it is. I think anonymity is the reason we can get those cherished comments that make us take another look at our own works.

Another point to consider - having monthly free studies here would reduce the incentive for our photographers to branch out beyond the dpc fold as they gain skills enough to compete successfully in other venues. At some point in their developement all shooters need to wet their feet in other places, be it juried competitions, online contests, or the county fair. If we try to become all things to all photographers we will be doing an injustice to those who are reluctant to venture out of their comfort zone.

And, IMHO, the new people who would be attracted to the site by more non-themed challenges are not a group who would contribute much to the site, or gain the most from it.
01/28/2006 11:54:14 AM · #32
Originally posted by coolhar:

Another point to consider - having monthly free studies here would reduce the incentive for our photographers to branch out beyond the dpc fold as they gain skills enough to compete successfully in other venues. At some point in their development all shooters need to wet their feet in other places, be it juried competitions, online contests, or the county fair. If we try to become all things to all photographers we will be doing an injustice to those who are reluctant to venture out of their comfort zone.

With all due respect, Harvey, I don't think that's logical. If we accept your premise that all of us eventually need to "wet our feet in other places", then surely we best serve that goal by allowing our membership to dip their toes into Free Study right here and gain a little confidence before taking the plunge (or the footbath) out there? Plus, not all of our members WANT to explore that larger world; many participate so actively here because we are a community, an active, thriving community, and this is what really sets us apart. Their photographic goals may be somewhat limited, they may have no desire to compete actively on an expanded scale, but this (IMO) in no way justifies restricting their means of competing on the smaller scale that is DPC.

Originally posted by coolhar:

And, IMHO, the new people who would be attracted to the site by more non-themed challenges are not a group who would contribute much to the site...

What exactly does this mean? It's your contention that "new people" attracted to the site by free study challenges will not be active participants in the community at large?

Originally posted by coolhar:

...or gain the most from it.

And this? That photographers attracted to the site by free study challenges will be "too good" to gain much from our community?

****

My counter to these last two points would be that MOST members of DPC are not what I would call truly active members. Nor do I much care. There's plenty of activity as it is. Any number of our most-admired members are not especially active in the community. A prime case-in-point would be jjbeguin, with 23 ribbons (most recently in the "singled out" challenge) and 6 honorable mentions; he has made exactly 10 posts since September 30, 2004.

Personally, I'd welcome anyone who shoots that well here with open arms, regardless of how much they otherwise "contribute". I see no reason to be "afraid" of attracting excellent shooters from outside (especially bearing in mind that they'd have to be paid members to participate in these free studies), and I'd submit that even IF they have little to learn from us then the other side of that coin is that we might have much to learn from THEM.

R.

Message edited by author 2006-01-28 11:55:37.
01/28/2006 03:21:25 PM · #33
Originally posted by coolhar:

With all due respect David, I think you have overlooked, or at least failed to state the importance of, the key element that separates dpc from other online photography sites. That is the concept of anonymity. We are all a lot more objective when viewing, voting upon, and critiqueing photos if we don't know who's photo it is. I think anonymity is the reason we can get those cherished comments that make us take another look at our own works. ...

Not overlooked, just not emphasized. The anonymity is part and parcel to the challenge organization and no doubt helps build the atmosphere here. However, reading the individual photo discussions I see the same willingness to 'tear into' a photograph that I don't see anywhere else. Sure there are the big guns, who when posting a snapshot get a bowled over with 'oohs and aahs', but for the most part being anonymous hasn't been required for the critic to feel free to speak his mind.

Originally posted by coolhar:

... Another point to consider - having monthly free studies here would reduce the incentive for our photographers to branch out beyond the dpc fold as they gain skills enough to compete successfully in other venues. At some point in their developement all shooters need to wet their feet in other places, be it juried competitions, online contests, or the county fair. If we try to become all things to all photographers we will be doing an injustice to those who are reluctant to venture out of their comfort zone. ...

Sorry, but again I must disagree. The thought of essentially running the talent off when they get too talented for the rest of us just doesn't sit well with me. Most of the top talent on the site have moved on, and that is a shame -- they leave a legacy and a hole in the community that is difficult to replace. Loosing the talent from the top end on a regular basis as more and more leave, and very few come back (welcome back Nasti!), is a way to decrease the value of the site -- not increase it. It won't even maintain the status quo.

Originally posted by coolhar:

... And, IMHO, the new people who would be attracted to the site by more non-themed challenges are not a group who would contribute much to the site, or gain the most from it.

IMO, if they are photographers they have something to contribute.

David
01/28/2006 03:22:36 PM · #34
I agree! I think a monthly free study would be awesome!!
01/28/2006 03:32:35 PM · #35
Like I stated before I'm not real keen on regular monthly free studies but one thing it may do is persuade more registered users to become paid members, which would be a good thing.
01/28/2006 03:36:18 PM · #36
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

With all due respect, Harvey, I don't think that's logical. If we accept your premise that all of us eventually need to "wet our feet in other places", then surely we best serve that goal by allowing our membership to dip their toes into Free Study right here and gain a little confidence before taking the plunge (or the footbath) out there? Plus, not all of our members WANT to explore that larger world; many participate so actively here because we are a community, an active, thriving community, and this is what really sets us apart. Their photographic goals may be somewhat limited, they may have no desire to compete actively on an expanded scale, but this (IMO) in no way justifies restricting their means of competing on the smaller scale that is DPC.

Don't we already let them dip their toes into Free Studies?

If people confine their photographic activity solely to dpc they will not have as wide an experience and as wide a background. Their education will be skewed. And the reach out from dpc to the bigger world of photography does not have to be in a competitive venue. It may be into photojournalism, studio work, stock photography, or maybe just taking better shots of their family and pets. Although most of us seem to really like the world of 640x640, there is a lot more to be learned and enjoyed. People should be encouraged to explore to see if there is something else out there they may enjoy as much as dpc.

Originally posted by bear_music:

What exactly does this mean? It's your contention that "new people" attracted to the site by free study challenges will not be active participants in the community at large?

Originally posted by coolhar:

...or gain the most from it.

And this? That photographers attracted to the site by free study challenges will be "too good" to gain much from our community?

****

My counter to these last two points would be that MOST members of DPC are not what I would call truly active members. Nor do I much care. There's plenty of activity as it is. Any number of our most-admired members are not especially active in the community. A prime case-in-point would be jjbeguin, with 23 ribbons (most recently in the "singled out" challenge) and 6 honorable mentions; he has made exactly 10 posts since September 30, 2004.

Personally, I'd welcome anyone who shoots that well here with open arms, regardless of how much they otherwise "contribute". I see no reason to be "afraid" of attracting excellent shooters from outside (especially bearing in mind that they'd have to be paid members to participate in these free studies), and I'd submit that even IF they have little to learn from us then the other side of that coin is that we might have much to learn from THEM.

R.
The people who come with little to learn don't contribute as much in the way of entries, votes, comments, and helpful forum posts as the ones who come as beginners or novices. They tend to make some rather silly proposals to modify the site before they really understand what it is all about. And sometimes they show an irritating arrogance when they expect to be treated as if their non-dpc background should entitle them to some kind of special treatment here at dpc. I think you make a mistake if you see competent and accomplished newcomers as more valuable to the community than the people who are here to learn and teach (and those who have acheived that level thru their participation here and want to give something back) though they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Present company excluded as you are truely an exceptional member of this community.
01/28/2006 04:04:47 PM · #37
Originally posted by David.C:

Sorry, but again I must disagree. The thought of essentially running the talent off when they get too talented for the rest of us just doesn't sit well with me. Most of the top talent on the site have moved on, and that is a shame -- they leave a legacy and a hole in the community that is difficult to replace. Loosing the talent from the top end on a regular basis as more and more leave, and very few come back (welcome back Nasti!), is a way to decrease the value of the site -- not increase it. It won't even maintain the status quo.
The loss of the top level of talent is balanced by the development of newbies into good photographers. That's what this site does best. But if it does not maintain the status quo we are failing. However, I think we are doing better than just maintaining the status quo; we are growing and prospering.

Few can stay in school forever. Most graduate and go on to bigger and better things. If we are fortunate, some of the alumni contribute back into the community some of what they have learned after graduation.

Originally posted by DavidC:

... IMO, if they are photographers they have something to contribute. ...
But do they?

I can agree with that but I also am not blind to the patterns of participation I have seen from the various categories we are discussing.
01/28/2006 04:28:54 PM · #38
Originally posted by coolhar:

The people who come with little to learn don't contribute as much in the way of entries, votes, comments, and helpful forum posts as the ones who come as beginners or novices. They tend to make some rather silly proposals to modify the site before they really understand what it is all about. And sometimes they show an irritating arrogance when they expect to be treated as if their non-dpc background should entitle them to some kind of special treatment here at dpc. I think you make a mistake if you see competent and accomplished newcomers as more valuable to the community than the people who are here to learn and teach (and those who have acheived that level thru their participation here and want to give something back) though they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Present company excluded as you are truely an exceptional member of this community.


I'm interested to know who you may be talking about. I suspect you may be refering to people who used to be very active members of the DPC community then tried to evolve the site as their photography matured.
01/28/2006 04:44:28 PM · #39
Originally posted by coolhar:

The people who come with little to learn don't contribute as much in the way of entries, votes, comments, and helpful forum posts as the ones who come as beginners or novices. They tend to make some rather silly proposals to modify the site before they really understand what it is all about. And sometimes they show an irritating arrogance when they expect to be treated as if their non-dpc background should entitle them to some kind of special treatment here at dpc. I think you make a mistake if you see competent and accomplished newcomers as more valuable to the community than the people who are here to learn and teach (and those who have acheived that level thru their participation here and want to give something back) though they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Present company excluded as you are truely an exceptional member of this community.


I submit that you don't have to be a new, incoming, top-level photographer to have an expectation of special treatment, an ego, or and irritating arrogance. That sort of thing pops up in all levels of people here at DPC and has nothing to do with their level of photography whatsoever.
01/28/2006 04:54:22 PM · #40
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:

I'm interested to know who you may be talking about. I suspect you may be refering to people who used to be very active members of the DPC community then tried to evolve the site as their photography matured.

Do you put yourself into that category? I would be more likely to put you into the returning alumni group based that on how much you have shared with us all of what you have learned in your photographic explorations beyond dpc. I am thinking especially about gig photography, where I personally think you have excelled, and have selflessly passed along lots of useful infomation to less experienced dpc'ers.
01/28/2006 04:58:41 PM · #41
Originally posted by Artyste:

I submit that you don't have to be a new, incoming, top-level photographer to have an expectation of special treatment, an ego, or and irritating arrogance. That sort of thing pops up in all levels of people here at DPC and has nothing to do with their level of photography whatsoever.
You are right about that. I guess I just find it more annoying coming from those people than from others. Just a personal thing perhaps. Thanks for corecting me.
01/28/2006 05:30:05 PM · #42
darn, I thought someone was going to let me shoot things for free, or shoot free things, or maybe free some shot things...

Still pissed at Brent, Harv?
01/28/2006 07:20:25 PM · #43
Originally posted by coolhar:

And sometimes they show an irritating arrogance when they expect to be treated as if their non-dpc background should entitle them to some kind of special treatment here at dpc. I think you make a mistake if you see competent and accomplished newcomers as more valuable to the community than the people who are here to learn and teach (and those who have acheived that level thru their participation here and want to give something back) though they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Present company excluded as you are truely an exceptional member of this community.


Not "more valuable" but valuable nonetheless. As for "arrogance", it can creep in at any level (as recent events have shown) and we, as a community, seem to deal with it well enough when it does pop up.

Thanks for the compliment.

R.

Edit to add: I see Artyste beat me to that second comment :-)

Message edited by author 2006-01-28 19:22:26.
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