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04/19/2002 09:40:51 PM · #1 |
I have read a LOT of forum activity this week that I feel is inappropriate. This activity is stemming from responses to comments that voters leave on challenge entries. The discussions primarily include justifications for why a photo does or does not meet a challenge or why a negative comment was made. This is causing bias in the vote. The voting for this challenge is not over and I know who the owners are for about 12 of the photos in this challenge. I know this because I have received message either questioning my comments or thanking me for the comments.
#1. I believe that vote comment replies should NOT be available before the vote is over. Why? See #2.
#2. Your photograph should stand on it's own in a challenge. If you must explain your photograph, you did not meet the challenge. If I can't determine how a photo applies to a challenge, or if it doesn't appear to meet the challenge, I will score it accordingly.
#3. If I leave a comment that explains why I did or did not like a particular photo, I am not going to change my vote based on an explanation from the photographer. My first interpretation of a photo is where my vote comes from. Why? See #2.
I value every comment I get on my photos, whether it is subjective, objective, irrelevant, or otherwise. I also don't expect everyone to like my photos. I have seen, in the last two weeks, that there is a very diverse crowd here. My photos are to please ME. I enjoy the challenge concept and I will post whatever *I* like. I'm not posting a photo for the purpose of winning. If I win, great... If I don't win, I have still received some useful feedback. If I score very poorly, I hope the comments I receive help me do better next time.
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04/19/2002 09:44:19 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I have read a LOT of forum activity this week that I feel is inappropriate. This activity is stemming from responses to comments that voters leave on challenge entries. The discussions primarily include justifications for why a photo does or does not meet a challenge or why a negative comment was made. This is causing bias in the vote. The voting for this challenge is not over and I know who the owners are for about 12 of the photos in this challenge. I know this because I have received message either questioning my comments or thanking me for the comments.
#1. I believe that vote comment replies should NOT be available before the vote is over. Why? See #2.
#2. Your photograph should stand on it's own in a challenge. If you must explain your photograph, you did not meet the challenge. If I can't determine how a photo applies to a challenge, or if it doesn't appear to meet the challenge, I will score it accordingly.
#3. If I leave a comment that explains why I did or did not like a particular photo, I am not going to change my vote based on an explanation from the photographer. My first interpretation of a photo is where my vote comes from. Why? See #2.
I value every comment I get on my photos, whether it is subjective, objective, irrelevant, or otherwise. I also don't expect everyone to like my photos. I have seen, in the last two weeks, that there is a very diverse crowd here. My photos are to please ME. I enjoy the challenge concept and I will post whatever *I* like. I'm not posting a photo for the purpose of winning. If I win, great... If I don't win, I have still received some useful feedback. If I score very poorly, I hope the comments I receive help me do better next time.
~claps~ VERY well put. I couldn't agree more. I got a few myself. I really don't want to know who they belong to until voting is over as votes can then be changed among other issues this causes.
Why ???
See # 2 and stuff :) |
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04/19/2002 10:14:07 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
#2. Your photograph should stand on it's own in a challenge. If you must explain your photograph, you did not meet the challenge. If I can't determine how a photo applies to a challenge, or if it doesn't appear to meet the challenge, I will score it accordingly.
Agreed.
With that I'll admit I'm one of the addressed in this thread, and I apologize. I did break my usual pre finale silence by sending a few mails to folks. I got 4 comments regarding if my shot was a scan. Some were asking, some accusing. This caught me totally off guard, as I spent three days and 300 shots to get what I came up with. Well after Drew and Langdon told folks to reccommend folks for disqual if they thought there was a fake I STILL got a comment accusing me of scanning the shot.
Folks remember, the admins WILL disqual photos if they deserve it (they have done so often enough in the past.) If people would remember this, not as many people would feel the need to "plead" for justification.
Also take jmsetzler's advice to heart. I know it's hard to remember to send thanks and replies after the challenge is over (trust me, I've been way too lax myself...) If you think you may have trouble, perhaps before voting for one challenge, you could take a few minutes to send replies to comments for the week before. I'm going to try that after this round. |
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04/19/2002 10:16:47 PM · #4 |
myk,
your situation was different... but i think drew summed that up by saying to vote as if the shot is legal and let the admins sort it out and this sounds reasonable to me. I voted it that way myself.
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04/19/2002 10:20:38 PM · #5 |
| Jm, you show a lot more maturity than many of us here. And I place myself at the top of the list for the immaturity. |
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04/19/2002 11:07:26 PM · #6 |
| Thanks for clearing that up. I was begining to think I had to reply to some of the comments I received. Now I don't feel bad for keeping my mouth shut. |
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04/20/2002 12:26:18 AM · #7 |
I'm too tired to go searching for old threads, but this topic was definitely brought up when we made the comments section (topics-replying to comments, private messaging, etc.) ... the current system is completely a result of the voice of the people. It certainly has its disadvantages, but it also has some good points as well.
To throw in my personal opinion, I've said from day ONE that I don't think a photographer should be allowed to justify his photograph or explain it. A photograph should stand for itself.
That said, one of the best features of this site is feedback and building community ... and on that front, the more comments the better.
To be honest with you, the BEST solution here is to NOT reply to all of your comments. If you've received a question or something, feel free to answer it. But don't reply to your comments just because they're there (this goes back to the challenge anonymity thing), and certainly don't reply to try to persuade. I think it's just a fairness thing, and we'll leave it up to photographer integrity.
As for fake photographs -- like I said, give it the benefit of the doubt and vote like it's not fake... but recommend it for disqualification and let us sort it out. And continue to leave as much feedback as possible... it really makes the site.
Drew |
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04/20/2002 12:52:36 AM · #8 |
Soooo... Langdon and I think the best solution here is just to keep comments anonymous until voting is over. And that's been implemented. Fair?
Drew |
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04/20/2002 01:37:06 AM · #9 |
Very fair! This site just keeps getting better and better.
Tim J |
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04/20/2002 02:08:30 AM · #10 |
To sum up your post up:
A) Comment replies should not be available before the vote is over because the photo should stand on its own.
B) People should not change their vote based on an explanation by the photographer because the photo should stand on its own.
+++
Doesn't your #3 nullify your #2? If people don't change their vote based on explanation from the photographer, then who cares if the photographer explains away?
If a photographer answers a comment, and the voter changes her vote, who's fault is it for biasing the voting? I say it's the voter's fault.
I do agree, though, that if voters are going to fail on their end (which you claim they do, but have no evidence for), then comments should be hidden from them until voting is over. I do not agree with you blaming the photographers who respond rather than the voters who change their votes based on photographer explanations.
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
#1. I believe that vote comment replies should NOT be available before the vote is over. Why? See #2.
#2. Your photograph should stand on it's own in a challenge. If you must explain your photograph, you did not meet the challenge. If I can't determine how a photo applies to a challenge, or if it doesn't appear to meet the challenge, I will score it accordingly.
#3. If I leave a comment that explains why I did or did not like a particular photo, I am not going to change my vote based on an explanation from the photographer. My first interpretation of a photo is where my vote comes from. Why? See #2.
* This message has been edited by the author on 4/20/2002 2:09:07 AM.
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04/20/2002 03:00:40 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
Soooo... Langdon and I think the best solution here is just to keep comments anonymous until voting is over. And that's been implemented. Fair?
I totally agree with it: it's the only way to keep voting fair and clean. |
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04/20/2002 05:33:49 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
Soooo... Langdon and I think the best solution here is just to keep comments anonymous until voting is over. And that's been implemented. Fair?
Drew
Wow, I like the new change. It just seems more fair.
Barbara |
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04/20/2002 06:07:17 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
Soooo... Langdon and I think the best solution here is just to keep comments anonymous until voting is over. And that's been implemented. Fair?
Drew
Yes it does seem fair. Although my suggestion, based on someone e-mailing me and saying that they value the comments for their picture, is to let the comments go to the users but leave them anonymous until after the voting has completed. Either way works. Your way just makes the photographer wait an extra week for comments, which doesn't bother me at all.
Roger |
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04/20/2002 06:30:31 AM · #14 |
| Amen. I would rather wait until the voting is finished to read the comments. |
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04/20/2002 06:42:57 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by conceptgraphics:
Amen. I would rather wait until the voting is finished to read the comments.
You may still read the comments, you just don't know who said what. And, you can'd cypher their vote either!
See how fast these guys implement changes! They deserve an award for designing and running a first class site.
* This message has been edited by the author on 4/20/2002 6:52:41 AM. |
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04/20/2002 07:03:15 AM · #16 |
| ...and a halleluiah to that too. Keep up the good work, guys! |
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04/20/2002 07:49:42 AM · #17 |
I've questioned the system we had before, because I thought it odd that one should have to temper one's comments for fear that someone would send you a nasty message - which, as I said in another thread, has happened before to me, simply because I was honest in my feedback on what I perceived to be a flawed photo.
But there still has to be a mechanism of recourse for the photographers in case they are unfairly accused of something. (the person who posted the comment on everyone's self-portrait 'nice pic but i don't see how it incorporates a mirror and an outstretched arm' comes to mind. Or poor arnit and his ill-received toast picture. Or the 'is this a scan' fiasco.). And I don't think this current system really addresses that. Or am I missing something? Who do the photographers turn to in these situations?
Thank you.
(Man, I go out for one evening, and come back to find all heck has broken loose!) |
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04/20/2002 07:58:00 AM · #18 |
I too like the new change. It takes the sting out of the cruel remarks and adds a sense of surprise for the insightful ones. Now we will have the added surprise of finding out the identities of the commentors when we find out the winners for the week. This makes things even more fun on this site. Good going guys!
I would also like to offer my apologies to anyone I have offended this week in my defending of my photo. Sometimes it is easy to get caught up in the moment and let your emotions rule. In looking at the big picture I can't believe I let any of it bother me. I never thought my entry had a chance to win even before I saw the competition. |
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04/20/2002 08:21:22 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by shortredneck:
I too like the new change. It takes the sting out of the cruel remarks and adds a sense of surprise for the insightful ones. Now we will have the added surprise of finding out the identities of the commentors when we find out the winners for the week. This makes things even more fun on this site. Good going guys!
I also like the new style, as long as the author's names appear after the week is up. Don't think I'd like to see anonymous commenting as I think it is important people can stand by their comments.
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04/20/2002 08:24:59 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by GordonMcGregor:
I also like the new style, as long as the author's names appear after the week is up.
Yes, the other pages will still show username's associated with comments, and you can feel free to send nice or nasty messages. :)
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04/20/2002 08:48:25 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
But there still has to be a mechanism of recourse for the photographers in case they are unfairly accused of something. (the person who posted the comment on everyone's self-portrait 'nice pic but i don't see how it incorporates a mirror and an outstretched arm' comes to mind. Or poor arnit and his ill-received toast picture. Or the 'is this a scan' fiasco.). And I don't think this current system really addresses that. Or am I missing something? Who do the photographers turn to in these situations?
Thank you.
Imagine this scenario: everyone thinks your pic was faked. And you can't tell anyone. I certainly wouldn't want to be in that position.
OKAY, here's a suggestion. if there's an issue that needs to be dealt with, the one above, the photog can message the admins. They can then post 'News Alert!' messages on the front page that say things like 'The pic titled 'The dog ate my hamster' is NOT fake, repeat NOT fake.'
Downside: more work for the admins.
IMO, the real problem, because things used to be fine, isn't how the site was set up. The system we had encouraged working on one's civility and communication skills. To say what needed to be said without being overly abrasive, and to respond what was said with some perspective and detachment, and especially ONLY RESPOND IF ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. People who want to respond to every comment during the contest are messing with the whole idea of a secret ballot.
But again, we need a mechanism now to solve probs such as listed above. : ) |
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04/20/2002 09:07:06 AM · #22 |
Let's face it. It will never be perfect because we don't live in a perfect world. When we have a challenge such as the present one, there will be people losing the whole point of the contest and try to find the "fakes". On the other hand, there may be one or two who may actually fake the photo. Drew and Langdon addressed this problem several times. They want us to vote as if the photo is genuine but reccommend for disqualification so they can investigate the matter. This is a good plan of action I believe. The hard part is getting everyone to go by this plan.
I also applaud the admins for balancing the challenges between the technical and creative. This gives us a breather between the "hard" challenges and leaves the field open to a wider interpretation. I would suspect there will be less controversy surrounding next week's challenge.
Now I am off to snap some transitional photos and replace my less than satisfactory entry with a better one. Good luck to all for the "Transitions" competition. |
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04/20/2002 09:07:30 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
Soooo... Langdon and I think the best solution here is just to keep comments anonymous until voting is over. And that's been implemented. Fair?
Drew
I like this. Thanks!
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04/20/2002 09:12:37 AM · #24 |
right on. it's funny that they gave us the latitude to act like adults but we all blew it : )
yeah i've made a few stabs at transition but I'm not thrilled to death with them. even went to a special 'sports and fun night' at a middle school last night (wife's a teacher) with the idea of getting some shots. talk about sensory overload!
good luck!
Originally posted by shortredneck:
Let's face it. It will never be perfect because we don't live in a perfect world. ...
Now I am off to snap some transitional photos and replace my less than satisfactory entry with a better one. Good luck to all for the "Transitions" competition.
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04/20/2002 09:14:10 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by shortredneck:
I also applaud the admins for balancing the challenges between the technical and creative. This gives us a breather between the "hard" challenges and leaves the field open to a wider interpretation. I would suspect there will be less controversy surrounding next week's challenge.
While I agree in general with your point, and certainly like the mix of creative vs technical challenges, I still think we'll get a weeks worth of 'that's not a transition' 'yes it' type of discussions...
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