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01/04/2006 10:32:18 AM · #1 |
I was contacted recently by a business to do a montage for the owner, I had to drive 4.5 hours each way to take photos of the employees in one of the offices, a half hour each way to take photos of the employees in the second office, and they paid an employee in the third office to take photos of those employees (and for the backdrop and lights). I was originally asked to provide them with a 24 x 36 print of the montage for one of the owners. (which I then contacted a high quality lab to print out - $145 CND for this print) To take the photos, drive to the other city, clean up the photos, swap heads etc and clean up the other guys prints and to assemble the prints into a montage it took me over 12 hours to do. I’ve asked for $150 for my time.
They are paying me an additional $150.00 but are not happy with it and i've asked for the $100.00 CDN (i have receipts) for the gas it took to get to the other city.
They now want the completed file. (395 meg file) For free and shipped to them delivery today, so they can print it out elsewhere for two other people as they think that a high quality print 24” x 36” print shouldn’t cost over $50.00 CDN.
What is your opinion of this situation?
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Message edited by author 2006-01-04 10:38:43. |
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01/04/2006 10:36:16 AM · #2 |
I personally have no experience in these matters, but it sounds to me like you have been tremendously underpaid for the amount of work/time/expense you have put in.
Edit: I would stick to your guns and if anything they should consider themselves very fortunate to have this job done for such a low price
Message edited by author 2006-01-04 10:38:13. |
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01/04/2006 10:39:37 AM · #3 |
I would never give a file for free, I have been told that you shouldn't give your high resolution files at all. Im not sure who told me though, hopefully someone with more experience can help you out ;)
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01/04/2006 10:43:08 AM · #4 |
Insist on payment per the terms agreed upon. Do what you can to make them happy, but make sure they understand they owe you for the full amount. What does your written agreement say? If the want you to invoice them and they are not happy, they may balk at paying what they owe. If they don't meet your payment terms, don't be afraid to sic a collections agency on them, you won't get all your money since the agency has to take their fee, but you will get some.
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01/04/2006 10:43:22 AM · #5 |
| Seems WAY too much for that amount of $ and I would not be happy to let go of the source file. What does the contract say? How much could a bad client hurt you? |
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01/04/2006 10:43:40 AM · #6 |
I would never surrender the file. They would then be able to make as many prints as they wanted, and you would earn nothing from them. Stick to your guns. Was there a contract involved? If there was, it should have spelled this out, I think.
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01/04/2006 10:44:08 AM · #7 |
I would not do a job like that for less than $2,500.00 USD. If that would not be OK with them I would pass. Never sell your work cheep. If you do quility work you should get paied for it. I would rather do one job for $2,500.00 than 10 jobs for $250.00. That's just me. Do not give them anything with out getting paied.
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01/04/2006 10:47:48 AM · #8 |
What does your contract say?
All of this stuff--how much you get paid and what the client will receive at the end of the shoot (either a print or high-res file), as well as what the final deliverable will cost, should all be spelled out, agreed to, and signed before any work commences and before any money changes hands. That way, there are no misunderstandings. |
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01/04/2006 10:48:02 AM · #9 |
OH and the best part of all this
I had to do it in THREE WEEKS |
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01/04/2006 10:51:12 AM · #10 |
they agreed on the prices below, and nothing else at that time
Originally posted by Zal:
What does your contract say?
All of this stuff--how much you get paid and what the client will receive at the end of the shoot (either a print or high-res file), as well as what the final deliverable will cost, should all be spelled out, agreed to, and signed before any work commences and before any money changes hands. That way, there are no misunderstandings. |
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01/04/2006 10:58:10 AM · #11 |
OK, so I am not a laywer, nor a photographic business owner (though I play one on the Business of Photography Mentorship) but here's my two cents on this.
First, is there a contract? (You've not specifically said yet.) If so, then do exactly what the contract says you will do.
If not, then I would not give them the source file under any circumstances. They can have back the photos that their employee took, but that's it.
You may risk alienating a client, but I'm not sure that you'd want to do any more work for this company anyway.
In the end, the montage, as well as the shots that you took are YOUR PROPERTY, and, unless you signed a contract, you're under no obligation to give them away. If they don't like your prices then they can go hire another photographer. |
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01/04/2006 11:00:57 AM · #12 |
There was no formal contract other than they signed a quote that included what i said below.
I Think i've learned a sad lesson onthis
Message edited by author 2006-01-04 11:01:13. |
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01/04/2006 11:20:09 AM · #13 |
So originally they wanted a print, one print? Is that is what is on the invoice?
Did you add to the price (gasoline) after teh agreed upon price, or did they add to the amout of work (hours of driving)?
If you agreed to $150 and a print, then stick to it. If you lose money, well, you learned a valueable lesson. IF they changed the requirements part way through, then explain that to them, have them signa a 'change order' spelling out the changes and new fees.
Lastly, if the agreement said they get teh file, they do. if it is not specified, then simply tell them - "YOu get one print for your use. I'll be happy to supply the digital file for a limited use (spell that out!!) as it is a copyrighted image, for $400 (pick a number). If you would like unlimited rights, then $2500 (or some high number).
MAKE SURE you put a copyright notice with your name on it on the print.
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01/04/2006 01:07:25 PM · #14 |
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01/04/2006 02:12:47 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Di:
There was no formal contract other than they signed a quote that included what i said below.
I Think i've learned a sad lesson onthis |
'
If they signed a quote, then give them what is on the quote and make them pay extra for everything that isn't on there. I would never give the original away for free. Sell it to them and wash your hands of the whole deal.
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01/04/2006 02:15:38 PM · #16 |
tough for them Di
if they want the file they pay for the copyright which cost however much you want them to charge.
Copyright was not in your original deal, a print was. You would have charged more if you were doing the shoot for copyright, so they pqay your print costs or not at all. |
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01/04/2006 03:00:08 PM · #17 |
For what it's worth, $145 Canadian seems VERY high for a 24x36 inch print. I can get those made at a very fine quality locally for $40 US. That said, prints are typically marked up when sold, as well they should be; they take you time and effort to coordinate/produce.
To be honest, the rest of it is sort of muddy to me. Apparently you gave them a "bid" to do the job for "x" amount of money, then additionally invoiced them for at least the gas money, and maybe for more than they expected for the print. It's hard to say what's "right" here without seeing the original bid, the one they are looking at as you invoice them.
It seems very obvious, from what you've said here, that you grievously underbid the project altogether. I can't imagine doing ANY job of work as a photographer for $150, let alone one that involved that much travel and Photoshop time. And you have no reason to expect them to be sympathetic if you underbid the job; from their perspective a deal is a deal.
Just my random thoughts.
R. |
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01/04/2006 03:20:25 PM · #18 |
Woah...this is a mess:-(
Well, I quote photo/print jobs for a living everyday and I am having a hard time following all the turns :-/
As has been said..
If you provided them a quote that is all you are obligated for under the law.
Here are some things to remember..
Quote an estimated hourly rate, half day or full day
Quote Photography, Graphic design, and Printing all seperate. Photography by either package (day or half day or hourly), Graphic design for package or hourly, and printing by piece.
Customers pay for time and travel time is time on the clock. Quote expenses.
Quote or state shipping is extra and ask the customer how they want their shipping handled.
Using the above method..here is how I would have quoted..all in U.S. Dollars.
10 Hours travel = $90 per hour = $900
Full day shooting = $1,200
8 hours to create the montage x $95 an hour = $760
Printing an 24 x 36 on a 4000 dpi lazerjet = $128
Total for job = $2,988.00 (not including shipping or taxes)
Once a customer gets this quote..thats it. If it takes more time for me to do any of the work..Too bad for me..I should know my business.
Of course, we have staff, a reputation, blah, blah, blah. If someone thinks this is too high...more power to them..the job must not be mission critical. Our jobs are done to perfection. Our work is in every major magazine, on display in corporate HQ's and used to represent their company at industry trade shows.
The real question you have to ask. What is your overhead and what type of business do you run. Trust me..it doesn't do you any favors doing work at High School Yearbook prices because customers always expect 5th avenue work. :-/
Message edited by author 2006-01-04 15:23:01. |
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01/04/2006 03:23:31 PM · #19 |
no, the gas money was in teh quote they signed
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
For what it's worth, $145 Canadian seems VERY high for a 24x36 inch print. I can get those made at a very fine quality locally for $40 US. That said, prints are typically marked up when sold, as well they should be; they take you time and effort to coordinate/produce.
To be honest, the rest of it is sort of muddy to me. Apparently you gave them a "bid" to do the job for "x" amount of money, then additionally invoiced them for at least the gas money, and maybe for more than they expected for the print. It's hard to say what's "right" here without seeing the original bid, the one they are looking at as you invoice them.
It seems very obvious, from what you've said here, that you grievously underbid the project altogether. I can't imagine doing ANY job of work as a photographer for $150, let alone one that involved that much travel and Photoshop time. And you have no reason to expect them to be sympathetic if you underbid the job; from their perspective a deal is a deal.
Just my random thoughts.
R. |
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01/04/2006 03:25:33 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Di:
no, the gas money was in teh quote they signed |
Then hold them to it for sure.
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01/04/2006 03:36:35 PM · #21 |
Di
You are in Canada and if my memory serves me correctly then the Canadian Copyright laws are different to the USA ones. The ownership doesnt automatically go to the photographer in Canada, depends on the contract and who paid for what, on work for hire jobs. I would do a bit more research on this.
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01/04/2006 03:38:52 PM · #22 |
Just to add that $145 Canadian is a lot for a 24 x 36 print, I can get one done at DotPhoto.com for US$24.99 and they really do lovely printing.
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