Image overlay function in the D200 -- legal ?

12/31/2005 06:29:39 PM · #1

the D200 allows you to take two images and combine them -in camera-

this is not a multiple exposure as the images do not have to be concurrent
or (if i understand it correctly) even taken 'recently'

presumbebly if two images taken within the week timeframe
would the SC consider this to be legal?

from the manual:" Image overlay: two existing RAW photographs are combined to form a single picture which is saved separately from the originals. The originals must be on the same memory card."

Message edited by author 2005-12-31 18:37:19.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

12/31/2005 06:32:46 PM · #2

anything in camera flies here.

wavelength

Nikon D300

12/31/2005 06:37:13 PM · #3

wait, does that mean you can take a picture, choose something from your card, or upload something back to your card, and then take another picture?

Or do you have to do it in one sitting?

12/31/2005 06:39:50 PM · #4

wow....that's going to be a long discussion!

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

12/31/2005 06:40:22 PM · #5

it appears as though it could be copied back to a card providing no exteral editing had been done --
i will have to test this or look for a ref.
also from the manual
Image Overlay
The new image is recorded at current image quality, image size, and fi le name settings under a fi le name assigned by adding one to the largest file number in the current folder.
White balance, sharpening, color space, color mode, and hue settings are copied from thephotograph selected for Image 1, as are the date of recording, metering, shutter speed, aperture, exposure mode, exposure compensation, focal length, orientation, and other photo information.

alanfreed

Nikon D6

12/31/2005 06:45:48 PM · #6

My opinion is that this would probably be ok... but don't expect that it will always be legal.

This would seem to me to be something that is simply outside of the spirit of the rules of DPC, and may be disallowed the next time the rules get a major tweaking.

As the rules are written now, it seems like they would permit it. I would envision some new rules down the road that would keep this from being legal, though. There are some pretty whacked-out things that can be done in-camera with some of the newer units nowadays.

I've seen write-ups about cameras that allow you to use a template of a cartoon, etc., and frame a shot within it. I can't see where that type of thing should be legal, personally, and I would think that SC will eventually address these types of things and adjust the rules accordingly. Just my opinions...

buzzrock

Fujifilm X-M1

Fujifilm XC 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 OIS

12/31/2005 06:47:45 PM · #7

Legal or Not, I'm wondering why someone would want to do it?
What kinda effect does it provide, any examples?

12/31/2005 06:49:24 PM · #8

//dpchallenge.com/challenge_rules.php?RULES_ID=10

"Your entry must come from a single photograph, taken during the specified challenge timeframe. You may not combine multiple exposures. You may not post-process your entry from or to include elements of multiple images, graphics or text such as multiple exposures, clip art, computer-rendered images, or elements from other photographs (even those taken during the challenge week). A photograph may only be used in one challenge, even if it is cropped or altered differently to fit another challenge. Duplicate photos will be disqualified.

Any modification done inside the digital camera itself is considered acceptable for challenge submission."

Message edited by author 2005-12-31 18:56:34.

Carl Zeiss Planar T 50mm f/1.7

12/31/2005 06:50:24 PM · #9

Question - what would prohibit someone from making massive changes to the file, putting it back on the cam with a blank image2 and merging them in cam to create an unlimited-edit, anything goes image?

The answer - nothing. So how can this possibly be legal? A blank jpg with opacity 0 merged with ANY image you wanted would then create a "legal" within the time frame image of the first image.

WOW.

tryals15

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

12/31/2005 06:52:44 PM · #10

Originally posted by mavrik:

My camera can't read files that have been tampered with in any way....

12/31/2005 06:52:49 PM · #11

Originally posted by mavrik:

how are you going to take an image with 0 opacity that does any good in combining? You can't take it with the camera so no exif, and you can't upload one to the camera because it 1) probably won't recognize the format and 2) won't actually do anything but dissapear over the other shot that has the exif in it.

Message edited by author 2005-12-31 18:54:00.

12/31/2005 06:58:25 PM · #12

Originally posted by kyebosh:

1) Take photo file001.jpg and file002.jpg
2) Open photo file001.jpg into PS
3) Dupe layer, delete bkgd layer
4) Set opacity to 0
5) save image
6) put image back on camera
7) Open photo file002.jpg into PS
8) Manipulate at will.
9) Put images back on camera
10) Merge images into file001_1.jpg
11) download file001_1.jpg and enter it on dpc.

How is that even REMOTELY legal? But it's possible now.

12/31/2005 06:59:04 PM · #13

If the cam can't read the manipulated file, that's good. If it can, that's trouble.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 12-24mm f/4.0G IF-ED

12/31/2005 07:00:42 PM · #14

Originally posted by mavrik:

except (& this is what i have to test ) i'm betting ANY modifications to the files (jpg/NEF) will prevent the camera operating image overlay on those images ..

NOTE: this has been done for years in film cameras & in the darkroom - making dramatic moons / clouds ( ie use a 300mm on the moon & a 24mm on the cityscape) or even multiple moons ;)

& it does open some more possibilities of table top trick shots
ie

jbsmithana

Nikon D300

12/31/2005 07:03:37 PM · #15

Originally posted by mavrik:

He said the manual states:
" Image overlay: two existing RAW photographs are combined to form a single picture which is saved separately from the originals. The originals must be on the same memory card."

The operative word here is RAW which can't be changed.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S21, S21+, S21 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

12/31/2005 07:04:22 PM · #16

One of the peculiar gray areas of our rules has always been that if your camera allows you to make multiple exposures on a single "frame", this has been accepted as "in camera" and legal. Up until now, this capability has always been sequential; you had to do them back-to-back. But it has not been allowed to take two sequential images and combine them in an editing program. Very gray area.

Now, apparently, it is possible to use the camera to combone NON-sequential images.

End result has to be one of two things; ban multiple-imaging altogether, whether in-camera or not, or allow multiple imaging in post-processing. My money's on eliminating the loophole and banning composites altogether, whether created in-camera or not.

R.

12/31/2005 07:06:21 PM · #17

ahhhh I see it's raw only now - that's a bit better...still the problem bear mentioned, but gets rid of my disaster scenario (happily).

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 12-24mm f/4.0G IF-ED

12/31/2005 07:06:45 PM · #18

in the quote i posted earlier, the rules are a little hazy, perhaps contradictory... it depends which part of the quote is condidered primary.

jbsmithana

Nikon D300

12/31/2005 07:07:23 PM · #19

I tend to agree with Bear but how will they be able to tell? A new RAW image is created using the data from the 1st RAW image in the combination. At least that is the way I read it from his description of the camera manual.

Message edited by author 2005-12-31 19:08:27.

labuds

Nikon D800

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

12/31/2005 07:18:40 PM · #20

Here's my issue with it.

Say you have a stunning image taken two years ago. You upload the RAW onto your CF card, take another picture that is completely black. Combine both and voila! You have a "legal" entry for DPC

Can a D200 user test this theory? Does the EXIF info keep track of what went on?

caba

Nikon D800

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 28-70mm f/2.8D IF-ED

12/31/2005 07:23:43 PM · #21

I hope they don't ban multiple exposures as my Fuji S2 allowes that inside the camera, but you have to take them back to back. I'm not that good at it but here's some examples of challenges that had multi-exposures.

Also many more examples on myweb site.

zxaar

12/31/2005 07:24:32 PM · #22

when i will get the time first thing i will write is a program to manipulate the exif data, corrently there is lot of important code to be written.

Originally posted by labuda:

12/31/2005 07:25:36 PM · #23

just tested it (possibly should have befor posting the can o'worms ;)

raw - untouched photos works as advertised .. (weird though )
jpgs No
raw edited in Nikon capture No

what i haven't tested is copying older files from a differnt media
(I.E. go shoot a Moon on one card, copy it to another then attempt to overlay on a fresh image ..)

graphicfunk

Canon EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM

12/31/2005 07:31:34 PM · #24

I do not think that this will fly: too much room for monkeying around and blatant misreprentation. Lubuda's point is only one such mischief.