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12/29/2005 04:37:46 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Just to stir the pot up some more...
People deserve more from a full-time job than just the necessities of survival. |
No they don't.
Extra's are earned either by additional schooling, additional hard work, additional effort, additional risk, or a number of other additional's. You are not entitled to anything more than the necessities. Everything beyond that is extra and requires something (additional) in return.
Message edited by author 2005-12-29 16:48:06.
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12/29/2005 04:52:57 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Just to stir the pot up some more...
People deserve more from a full-time job than just the necessities of survival. |
No they don't.
Extra's are earned either by additional schooling, additional hard work, additional effort, additional risk, or a number of other additional's. You are not entitled to anything more than the necessities. Everything beyond that is extra and requires something (additional) in return. |
I disagree. Full-time workers, IMO, are entitled to more than just financial compensation. A retirement account, health care, and other benefits should be given, even if some of that must come out of the worker's paycheck. As for part-time work, yes, I agree with you.
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12/29/2005 05:03:54 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Just to stir the pot up some more...
People deserve more from a full-time job than just the necessities of survival. |
No they don't.
Extra's are earned either by additional schooling, additional hard work, additional effort, additional risk, or a number of other additional's. You are not entitled to anything more than the necessities. Everything beyond that is extra and requires something (additional) in return. |
I disagree. Full-time workers, IMO, are entitled to more than just financial compensation. A retirement account, health care, and other benefits should be given, even if some of that must come out of the worker's paycheck. As for part-time work, yes, I agree with you. |
Justin,
From which basis do you disagree? As an employer or as an employee. Is this a philosophical position or one from a hard life lived? Many "full time" jobs have some form of health care, some access to a retirement account, and other benifits like vacation time off and/or sick days. Many also include access to company stock. These are options that each can decide for themselves. But a snowmobile, or cottage at the lake, or vacations to destinations of ones choosing, relaxation time, hobby's, sports, gardening, etc. are not the responsibility of the employer. Rather, the employee must manage their finances to secure the items important to them. By sacrificing one thing, a person gets another. These are earned. By additional effort, work or risk. Not by an entitlement. No one "deserves" these things. They are earned.
Message edited by author 2005-12-29 17:08:24.
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12/29/2005 05:12:54 PM · #54 |
"Texans periodically get to see flames shooting into the sky near oil drills. This is the natural gas being wasted, all of that potential fuel being discarded like garbage because it is too costly to refine and distribute to make a decent profit. "
And you propose to do what? raise the price of gas to $5 and making driving for only the rich? this will include a doubling of the city bus fares making it extremely difficult for the poor to reach their jobs.
"When we are in a world with masses dying from starvation"
The fact that said food is difficult to get to those in need and more so, that the regions most in need are destabilized. Often the case in Africa is that grain shipments get used by one faction as bait for the other and wind up becoming mass slaughters.
This is not saying I don't want to help, nor even that I don't want to send the food. But are you willing to send an army with the food to maintain safe and orderly distribution?
"Did you know that a light bulb has been invented that very rarely needs replaced. And did you know the owner of the patent is also a manufacturer of light bulbs. Don't expect these bulbs to ever show up in the market. "
This is in fact not an issue regarding capitalism but rather an issue concerning intellectual property rights. (A form of state granted monopoly.) True capitalism would put aside intellectual property rights and say who ever can build the better mousetrap for cheaper wins. Get rid of IP rights and guess what. Better bulbs. HIV meds for Africa. Thousands upon thousands of lives saved.
"And what about the car that runs on power-cells? This car is an electric car that runs on hydrogen and its only pollutant is water. "
They're working on this...and they really want this. Why? Because it allows for a new premium and complete replacement of the entire active automobile population.
"You can be assured that this project has the full support of the oil industry :). "
It's interesting, you'll see there is a division within the oil industry. Follow the investments. GWB allocated $5 billion toward fuel cell development. Why? Because "refineries" will still be needed in the early decades if not first century of fuel cells to produce the large amounts of hydrogen. There will still need to be a distribution system. So a certain segment of oil investors are actually dumping large sums in fuel cell development. The one's that are not, are the ones that for the most part own no refinery or distribution part of the business.
"There is a greater supply of post-consummer paper than there is demand for slightly more expensive recycled paper."
You are speaking about apples and apples. Post-consumer paper is partly recycled paper. In fact, your recycled paper in most cases still is not 100% recycled. This is what it comes down too. Recycled paper (most of the paper pulp content comes from recycled paper) is usually used in our brown bags and cardboard. Post-consumer content paper includes some recycled content but is limited as it becomes less white and in order to make it equally white it becomes much softer from over-bleaching. So they mix a portion. (This is more common with printer paper.)
Furthermore, a better question is why we don't use several of the fast growing plants that make for allowable paper and are quickly (seasonally) renewable resources.
"To keep prices low, and to compete, management must prey upon labor, keeping wages low, automating jobs out of existence, and exporting jobs to other nations which still have slave-wage labor."
One must remember, that part of all this stems from the fact that we all want to be kings. We all want a DVD player and we believe they should be affordable to the average man. Thus we must keep prices down. We don't want to be distinguished from the wealthy by a lack of "material things". And that's the real point of it. Sure, we could have higher wages, and charge $500 for that DVD. But we ourselves won't be able to afford a DVD.
You can't have both...sorry. Nations have tried. The Soviet Union tried. It failed...miserably. The end result was most had a lot less.
"A person who makes the effort to contribute to a society should be truly rewarded for that effort. Every worker should have a certain percentage of their wages that can be considered "expendible"."
So why doesn't the government give everyone $20,000 a year to do as they please? We'll just bleed the rich dry until they leave the country and take their global corporations with them. Then we'll collapse because we won't have anyplace to suck the free money from.
" "Between 1978 and 1987, the poorest fifth of American families became 8% poorer, and the richest fifth became 13% richer. "
This is potentially a very misleading statistic. It sounds great on paper but has many potential wholes. In fact, it only works with a set closed amount of wealth.
If there was $100 million total wealth and the poor lost even more. This would be pretty sad. But if the wealthiest fifth in turn created another $100 million for a total of $200 million. Then the gap may widen but it doesn't mean the poor became poorer. I really think one of the best measures of wealth is to look at home ownership. If it's gone up, then we've improved. If it's declined than we've declined.
In part, because a) it is the number one status measurer between working class and middle class. b) because my family became much more economically viable when we became a home owner. And I myself did when I became a homeowner.
"Reich gives a convincing argument that the reason for the vanishing middle class is because of economic changes...we are now living in a global economy."
True, much of the blue collar middle class is disappearing.
"Another way of saying this, is that the culprit is a capitalist economy."
Or, another way of putting it is that the U.S. economy continues to grow, but it's important to look at where that growth is located. Automation, information, design, education, entertainment, health, these are growth areas.
"The problem is, how many of those in the top fifth honestly earned their money? Those who sit around playing with money all day, producing nothing of value, and yet becoming richer is not the idea behind reward for labor and innovation. "
The day you have that sort of money and get to manage it let me know?
It's like the tale of two lotto winners. Both win a million dollars. One gives it all to the poor over a period of years helping a great many people. The other, starts a business and employs 50 people. If he had just divided that money he could have given his 50 employees a $20,000 check each. But it'd be gone that year. Instead, he is able to keep giving his employees $20,000 checks each year. Which is better?
"Is there EVER a situation where someone should earn in a day what it takes someone else a year to earn?"
Yes, when only 1 person in 365 people are capable of performing that job effectively.
"6. Wealthy Have More Political Power "
Very true, in fact, we should get away from party politics. Modern technology and media allow for a great disbursal of information. Candidates should register nationally (all independent and on their own merit). State their platforms, goals, and proposed means of achieving those goals.
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12/29/2005 05:15:30 PM · #55 |
Lastly, we all here have digital cameras.
All made in Taiwan, China, etc. at super-low costs. Please explain why we're !@#$%ing about a system but then using it to our own personal advantage. Don't like the system, either affect it thru the proper channels (start your own business) or don't patronize the system.
(Just shut the trap and get rid of your digital camera made at the hands of unjustly abused laborers.) |
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12/29/2005 05:18:18 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Flash:
From which basis do you disagree? As an employer or as an employee. |
As a student and future employee.
Originally posted by Flash:
Many "full time" jobs have some form of health care, some access to a retirement account, and other benifits like vacation time off and/or sick days. Many also include access to company stock. |
Right, and I am all in favor of this.
Originally posted by flash:
But a snowmobile, or cottage at the lake, or vacations to destinations of ones choosing, relaxation time, hobby's, sports, gardening, etc. are not the responsibility of the employer. |
I agree 100%. I am in favor of job benefits that may not be considered "necessities" to some: the benefits provided for most full-time employees, such as those you mentioned earlier. However, I disagree with, say, Wal-mart's severe lack of benefits as mentioned earlier in this thread. I was not asking for more than the typical business that offers adequate benefits.
Originally posted by Flash:
Rather, the employee must manage their finances to secure the items important to them. By sacrificing one thing, a person gets another. These are earned. By additional effort, work or risk. Not by an entitlement. No one "deserves" these things. They are earned. |
Agreed, for the most part. Under certain circumstances though I would have to disagree. I am in favor of welfare and government aid so long as the recipient really deserves it and isn't abusing the system. There are totally legitimate reasons for someone to be out of work, such as disability.
For the most part, I agree with you.
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12/29/2005 05:25:36 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Dirtypainter:
hmmmmmmmm gun related now is wal-mart related |
The Columbine H.S. shooters bought their guns and ammo at Kmart.
Close enough....
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12/29/2005 05:33:43 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Jammur:
The Columbine H.S. shooters bought their guns and ammo at Kmart. |
Are you sure about this? I was not aware of any state that allows HS students (those under 18 years of age [and perhaps 21]) to purchase firearms.
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12/29/2005 05:34:54 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
True capitalism would put aside intellectual property rights and say who ever can build the better mousetrap for cheaper wins. |
You seem to be in favor of Laissez-faire. Correct?
Message edited by author 2005-12-29 17:38:29.
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12/29/2005 05:44:36 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Are you sure about this? I was not aware of any state that allows HS students (those under 18 years of age [and perhaps 21]) to purchase firearms. |
According to Wikipedia, they obtained the guns illegally. (Cool, a two "ll" word.)
"In the months prior to the attacks, Harris and Klebold illegally acquired a TEC-DC9 semi-automatic handgun, a Hi-Point 9 x 19 mm carbine, and two shotguns which they sawed off. With instructions from the internet, such as The Anarchist Cookbook, they also built 99 improvised explosive devices of various designs and sizes. The two perpetrators committed numerous felony violations of state and federal law, including the National Firearms Act and the Gun Control Act of 1968, even before the massacre began.
Due to their age, all four guns were illegally obtained by straw purchases. Robyn Anderson, a friend of Klebold's, was persuaded to buy the rifle and two shotguns for Harris and Klebold, but was never charged for her violations of federal gun laws. Mark Manes and Philip Duran were both found guilty of supplying the handgun to the two youths and received prison terms. A total of twenty-one federal, state, and local laws were broken to obtain the guns used."
Message edited by author 2005-12-29 17:45:33. |
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12/29/2005 05:44:40 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Jammur:
The Columbine H.S. shooters bought their guns and ammo at Kmart. |
Are you sure about this? I was not aware of any state that allows HS students (those under 18 years of age [and perhaps 21]) to purchase firearms. |
RE: "Bowling for Columbine"
Michael Moore and the survivors of the shootings confronting the executives of Kmart about their concern with the fact that the ammo had come from their stores. |
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12/29/2005 05:55:54 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
However, I disagree with, say, Wal-mart's severe lack of benefits as mentioned earlier in this thread. I was not asking for more than the typical business that offers adequate benefits. |
Please forgive my seemingly callous reaction, it is not intentional, but are there individuals who strive to grow up and work for any retail giant, including Wal-Mart. Are there parents at home with young children, coaxing them to eat their vegtables so that one day they can work at Wal-Mart? Are there parents paying college tuition for their children, so that upon graduation they can work for $8/hr. at Wal-Mart? I think not. Therefore, Wal-Mart serves a very functional role in our society, by offereing employment to those who either cannot or choose to not work elsewhere (due to educational limitations or their fisrt job gaining experience for a resume', or in retirement). There are many large retail employers (Meijers, Sears, JC Penny, etc.) that offer employment to first time job seekers, retirees, and others who choose to limit their educational pursuits at say High School. These employees deserve a full time wage commensurate with their abilities, but not commensurate with all other full time employers. If individuals working at Wal-Mart want more income/benefits, then they should seek employment from those that offer it. In so doing, they will do the "additional" things necessary to secure employment with such employers. To criticize Wal-Mart simply because they are different, in unfair in my opinion. The founder of Wal-Mart had a very successful business strategy and immense employee relations. Since his death and the subsequent business decisions of his heirs, much can be criticised. However, it is their businbess to ruin as they see fit. I do not understand the mentality of people who come seeking employment. Knocking on my door, asking for a job. Then once hired, complain that they have to work for their pay. If you don't want the job with a particular employer, then don't ask for it. Go elsewhere. Stay in school and educate yourself so that you can be the next founder of a great retail giant. Or whatever else stirs your soul.
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12/29/2005 06:00:48 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Jammur:
RE: "Bowling for Columbine"
Michael Moore and the survivors of the shootings confronting the executives of Kmart about their concern with the fact that the ammo had come from their stores. |
The retail origin of the ammo eludes me as to its importance. Why do you feel K-Mart is cullpable for the deaths generated by criminals? Why do you not feel the criminals are responsible for violating the very laws on the books designed to pervent such a catastrophe?
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12/29/2005 06:25:44 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Jammur:
RE: "Bowling for Columbine"
Michael Moore and the survivors of the shootings confronting the executives of Kmart about their concern with the fact that the ammo had come from their stores. |
The retail origin of the ammo eludes me as to its importance. Why do you feel K-Mart is cullpable for the deaths generated by criminals? Why do you not feel the criminals are responsible for violating the very laws on the books designed to pervent such a catastrophe? |
Personally, I see no reason to blame Kmart, Hi-Point, S&W, Federal Arms or any manufacturer or distributor culpable for the actions of individuals in this case. Nor would I hold any of the auto manufacturers liabel for traffic accidents, nor Oppenheimer responsible for Hiroshima. |
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12/29/2005 06:31:41 PM · #65 |
Us Canadians can be plenty violent on our own! Look at hockey, we love it!!
We blame each other to much, it’s easier than looking at ourselves!
Think maybe we should build a Moat?
Message edited by author 2005-12-29 18:38:54. |
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12/30/2005 10:09:14 AM · #66 |
The murders at Columbine HS got their guns from an 18 year old girl and a older man from gun shows and gun dealers to my knowledge. If it was K-mart is was conducted legally by these two adults. The murders bought them from the adults illegally. Both adults were convicted in the case for selling guns to under aged juveniles.
By the way, I just bought my 7 year old his first gun. And have been shooting with him safely since Christmas. He's a crack shot already. Isn't the Second Ammendment and freedom wonderful. |
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12/30/2005 11:43:38 AM · #67 |
CNN = Communist New Network
BTW, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun ;o)
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12/30/2005 12:02:29 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
CNN = Communist New Network
BTW, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun ;o) |
Best estimates, Bush has killed 32,000 more than Ted Kennedy's car. |
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12/30/2005 12:34:00 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Originally posted by theSaj:
True capitalism would put aside intellectual property rights and say who ever can build the better mousetrap for cheaper wins. |
You seem to be in favor of Laissez-faire. Correct? |
"You seem to be in favor of Laissez-faire. Correct?"
Not necessarily, I personally lean toward "Libertarian Communism". But I find it foolish to argue against the wrongs and inefficiencies of big business while arguing in favor of big government (which is essentially the biggest business).
That's like being a Hollywood star decrying that SUV's waste gas but driving your stretched Hummer limousine to the opening gala of your new film. |
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12/30/2005 12:37:10 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by hyperfocal:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
CNN = Communist New Network
BTW, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun ;o) |
Best estimates, Bush has killed 32,000 more than Ted Kennedy's car. |
Best estimates, Bush has killed 32,000 more than Ted Kennedy's car.
(considering that Congress had voted regarding Iraq (both before and after President Bush came into power) I must deeem Ted Kennedy in part also culpable.
Just curious, how many did the Kennedy's kill in Vietnam?
Message edited by author 2005-12-30 12:37:32. |
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12/30/2005 06:02:48 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Jammur:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Jammur:
RE: "Bowling for Columbine"
Michael Moore and the survivors of the shootings confronting the executives of Kmart about their concern with the fact that the ammo had come from their stores. |
The retail origin of the ammo eludes me as to its importance. Why do you feel K-Mart is cullpable for the deaths generated by criminals? Why do you not feel the criminals are responsible for violating the very laws on the books designed to pervent such a catastrophe? |
Personally, I see no reason to blame Kmart, Hi-Point, S&W, Federal Arms or any manufacturer or distributor culpable for the actions of individuals in this case. Nor would I hold any of the auto manufacturers liabel for traffic accidents, nor Oppenheimer responsible for Hiroshima. |
Thank you for this reply. It is an area that we significantly agree.
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12/30/2005 06:08:13 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by vtruan:
By the way, I just bought my 7 year old his first gun. And have been shooting with him safely since Christmas. He's a crack shot already. Isn't the Second Ammendment and freedom wonderful. |
Great! Safety and responsibility PLUS time with Dad. What more could a youngster need. And, YES the 2nd amendment is a wonderful feature of our specific Bill of Rights. Although many in the world are eager to thwart our vision of "freedom".
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