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12/23/2005 04:53:28 PM · #1 |
Today my mom was in the grocery store and I walked around nearby to take pictures. I was taking some pictures of their shopping carts to get some shallow depth of field and lines, when a truck pulls up, the guy rolls down the window and yells at me, "Hey.. who are you?". I asked "Who are you?", he said he was the store manager and asked if he could help me. I said "I'm just taking some pictures" and started to walk away, but then two guys jump out of the truck and run in front of me, grab me and start yelling at me to ask what I was taking pictures of.
I didn't know what they were going to do, so I tried to run but they grabbed me - hit one of them while trying to get loose, the other called the cops. Then they started being a little more civil, asked again what I was taking pictures of, I said the shopping carts. They asked why, I said it was to try and get a picture with shallow depth of field, with one of the carts in focus and the others out. They asked if it was for a press, or a school project, or something.. I said it was just for myself.
They brought me into the office and got my mom in there too, asked me a little more stuff. They called to see where the cops were, they were still on another call so they told them not to bother.
I think this is nothing short of rediculous - a 16 year old kid is taking pictures of their shopping cart so they yell at him and restrain him when he tries to leave? I know their door says no photography allowed on the premises, but I don't see how they can enforce it physically and when they have absolutely no proof I was doing anything that would harm them.
This isn't the first time it's happened either - last week I was taking a photo of one of the trash cans at the recycling center when the guy who worked there came out, got in my face, and told me there were no pictures allowed.
Do you think it's my camera? I've always taken photos of things in town, especially in private businesses, without any trouble until now - before, I had little silver point and shoot cameras that I'd compose through the LCD - now with a big black SLR I compose through the viewfinder (and a prime lens so I move around to take different shots), maybe I look more suspicious?
Does this happen to anybody else while you're trying to take pictures of things outside buildings?
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12/23/2005 04:57:46 PM · #2 |
| Im not sure what the laws are in New Mexico, but they are definetly not allowed to touch you in any way what so ever. they probably told the cops never mind because they knew they were in the wrong. |
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12/23/2005 04:58:42 PM · #3 |
They mistook you for the shopping cart pervert. ;-)
I agree - RIDICULOUS! |
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12/23/2005 05:02:34 PM · #4 |
I have being removed physically from government property here i was on an amy training place went on without looking at the signs around it they were not too happy with their sa80's in hand...
edit (it was a field area not like having hundreds of cars and things i really didnt know lol)
Message edited by author 2005-12-23 17:09:24.
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12/23/2005 05:02:59 PM · #5 |
I think businesses have the right to refuse use of cameras on their property. It's always safest to ask first. Some shops are happy for you to click off a few pics, others not so impressed at all. I def think anything that looks professional / like an SLR looks threatening to some folks. Once I politely asked a make-up lady if I could take a shot of her and another lady (would've made a great photo - sigh) and I was very abruptly told about their no-photography policy.
:) |
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12/23/2005 05:07:12 PM · #6 |
If you are on private property, you do not have the implicit right to photograph anything. Even though a place may allow access by the public (store, mall, parking lot etc.), that does not make it public property.
If you are on public property, go for it. Legally, they can't do anything, but the law may not deter some security goon from pounding you.
Message edited by author 2005-12-23 17:10:45.
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12/23/2005 05:09:31 PM · #7 |
| I agree they have the right to tell him to leave, but to chase him, grab him and hold him in custody??? I believe a good lawyer would sue for unlawful detention. |
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12/23/2005 05:18:57 PM · #8 |
One of the guys said he was an undercover cop when I asked, but he didn't show me ID, and I wouldn't have been able to tell if it was fake anyway.
I thought I should file a complaint with the BBB, but my mom said she thought they would press charges because I hit one of them trying to get free... I'll call my boss and see what he thinks about it.
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12/23/2005 05:19:39 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I agree they have the right to tell him to leave, but to chase him, grab him and hold him in custody??? I believe a good lawyer would sue for unlawful detention. |
He can sue for anything, but I doubt that detaining him long enough to determine his intent was illegal. Taking photographs in violation of the store's posted policy certainly was. Would store security be liable for detaining someone for shoplifting, even if it was later determined that they were not, in fact, shoplifting?
The store has to protect its interests and if outlawing photography on store premises is a tool they choose to implement, they have the right to enforce it.
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12/23/2005 05:25:19 PM · #10 |
| They wouldn't have grabbed an older person. The first one that grabs me better be a cop or he is likly to meet uncle buck. And if there is more than one of them likly kicked in the nads. "He is only 16 he must be screwing with something." Maybe they thought you were a gang member "the 16th street shopping cart bandits"? |
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12/23/2005 05:25:20 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I agree they have the right to tell him to leave, but to chase him, grab him and hold him in custody??? I believe a good lawyer would sue for unlawful detention. |
The grabbing and holding is a no no...
Unless you're doing something illegal....
Even security guards and bouncers have a lot less rights than you think they do, if you really want to press the point.
What they did would actually constitute an assault.
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12/23/2005 05:32:55 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
I know their door says no photography allowed on the premises, but I don't see how they can enforce it physically and when they have absolutely no proof I was doing anything that would harm them. |
This is your problem right here. A property owner (even a business) has every right to forbid photography on their premises so long as they notify you of that fact, and the sign on the doors constitutes notification. Because you were advised of the policy, they do have a right to enforce it.
~Terry
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12/23/2005 05:33:01 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Ombra_foto:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I agree they have the right to tell him to leave, but to chase him, grab him and hold him in custody??? I believe a good lawyer would sue for unlawful detention. |
The grabbing and holding is a no no...
Unless you're doing something illegal....
Even security guards and bouncers have a lot less rights than you think they do, if you really want to press the point.
What they did would actually constitute an assault. |
Are you a lawyer or do you just play one online?
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12/23/2005 05:36:00 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
He can sue for anything, but I doubt that detaining him long enough to determine his intent was illegal. Taking photographs in violation of the store's posted policy certainly was. Would store security be liable for detaining someone for shoplifting, even if it was later determined that they were not, in fact, shoplifting? |
Typically, yes. A retailer I work for part time told me that false imprisonment/false detention lawsuits of this type on average settle for about $10,000. For this reason, that retailer has very strict policies on who may or may not stop a suspected shoplifter, and under what circumstances.
~Terry
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12/23/2005 05:38:25 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I agree they have the right to tell him to leave, but to chase him, grab him and hold him in custody??? I believe a good lawyer would sue for unlawful detention. |
False Imprisonment:
1) Defendant intentionally yes
2) Causes, By acts or threats, Plaintiff to be totally confined yes
3) For an unreasonable amount of time how long? 15 mins?
4) Within boundaries, physical or intangible, established by Defendant, we'll say yes
5) With no reasonable means of escape, yes
6) To Plaintiff's contemporaneous knowledge of the confinementyes
7) Without consent or other legal justification maybe.
So this case would turn on "unreasonable amount of time" and "without consent or justification.
The shopkeeper's privilege includes: "Having reasonable belief that another has committed trespass or conversion of his property, a merchant's right to temporarily detain, investigate, and/or recapture property wrongfully taken."
As far as the grabbing and chasing, it depends on what they thought he was doing wrong and why they grabbed him. A "good lawyer" would argue 10 reasons they had for thinking he was doing something else.
I'm not saying at all that them taking him was right - just that 99% of the time they can probly do this no problem. If I was lawyering now, I wouldn't want the case.
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12/23/2005 05:40:08 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Are you a lawyer or do you just play one online? |
LOL...
No, many years a bouncer and in charge of security at a hospital.
I had to know the laws...
Police would back you up when you were right and/or liked, but the laws were a lot less fuzzy.
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12/23/2005 05:40:15 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Are you a lawyer or do you just play one online? |
Just for the record, I know you weren't talkin about me, but yes, to answer your question - in everything but ceremony.
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12/23/2005 05:47:03 PM · #18 |
It was about 30-45 minutes from the time of me taking the photos to me leaving the office.
I'm not going to sue them or anything, I'm none the worse for wear except a sprained wrist. I'll just have to be a little more friendly in the future if I get any trouble from people about taking photos - they wouldn't have grabbed me if I didn't try to just walk away in the first place I guess.
EDIT:
Here's the picture they got so upset about me taking:
Message edited by author 2005-12-23 17:55:52.
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12/23/2005 06:16:19 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
One of the guys said he was an undercover cop when I asked, but he didn't show me ID, |
This is where, if you chose to sue (which you shouldn't IMHO) you would make your case. The holding against your will is weak, but an undercover officer will either stay undercover, or show his sheild. This guy held you against your will (minor issue) while impersonating an officer (major issue). Darned tough to prove though lacking another witness to what he said unless he is silly enough to admit it.
One lesson here, unless you are sure you are going to be hurt, don't run from this sort of a situation. Running escalates things real fast. Be calm, be polite, stand your ground and insist that they either leave you alone or call the police. If someone claims they are police ask to see their ID if they don't offer it. |
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12/23/2005 06:21:44 PM · #20 |
No one can ever touch you or detain you at a store like that.
Even if you steal from Best Buy, and the think they know it, they have no inherent "right" to detain you or use physical force. This is generally a 50 state rule I think.
If they touched you, you can file charges. Go back there, do it again, let them try to do anything, and then get on YOUR cellphone and tell the 911 operator that some guys are unlawfully detaining you, and that one of them assulted you.
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12/23/2005 06:22:28 PM · #21 |
The picture you have posted looks like you were in the car-park not the shop itself ?
If someone told you that they were undercover police and then held you against your will, I would think that they would be impersonating a police officer, in my country this is a criminal offence.
Message edited by author 2005-12-23 18:24:04. |
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12/23/2005 06:26:58 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
No one can ever touch you or detain you at a store like that. |
I'm still looking up the law, but I'd be absolutely stunned if that was truly the law and not your opinion.
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12/23/2005 06:27:23 PM · #23 |
| The first problem here is that you were taking photos even though you knew you weren't supposed to. You saw the sign. I don't agree with the agressiveness of the situation and touching/detaining probably was a no-no, but before that happened you clearly violated their policies. I'll bet if you had gone to someone in charge and asked permission it would have ended very differently. Biggest suggestion I have is always respect the wishes of property owners especially when they make those wishes clear. |
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12/23/2005 06:39:05 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
I'm still looking up the law, but I'd be absolutely stunned if that was truly the law and not your opinion. |
Hill v. Sonitrol of Southwestern Ohio, Inc., 36 Ohio St.3d 36, 1988
Woman was detained, tried to get away and was physically hauled back inside. Ruled that it was within the owner's rights for the guards to detain her physically once she tried to get away.
This isn't the law - they can do a LOT - unless they banged your head off the wall, twisted your arm and slapped you...that's excessive. Short of that, the law doesn't help much.
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12/23/2005 06:39:33 PM · #25 |
I've been run out of places before for taking pictures. I've never been detained or assulted. Mostly just asked what I was doing in which I explained and then was asked to leave.
As far as somebody grabbing me and yelling in my face, I pitty the poor bastard because his day will go bad for him real quick like, weather I'm in the wrong or not. I'll ask ya one time to get your hands off then the s..t is gonna hit the fan.
Next time take the shopping carts with you. Stores don't seem to have a problem with that. I see people pushing them all over town.
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