First DQ....Rules Suggestion - DPChallenge Forums

12/22/2005 11:23:37 PM · #1

I have just received my first Disqualification. It was for an image in the Basic Editing Challenge. I honestly thought I had done nothing wrong until the Site Council explained that the Gradient Fill layer was violating the rules.

I read the rules and it states -

"Layers: Only Adjustment Layers (or the non-Photoshop equivalent) may be used. An Adjustment Layer is one that does not contain any pixel data, but rather is a special, non-image layer that lets you experiment with color and tonal adjustments to an image without permanently modifying the pixels. Adjustment Layers must be applied in Normal mode. All other types of layers (including those that contain pixel data or masks) and all other blending methods (modes) are prohibited. Changing the opacity of an Adjustment Layer is permitted."

I should have read this a little clearer.

Now....I am ot angry...maybe a bit disappointed with myself....but it got me thinking. If I had stuffed up with this rule, thank how many others have also or will be disqualified because of this rule.

So I would like to make a suggestion to the council to modify the rules to state very clearly by listing exactly which Adjustment Layers are allowed.

I would also like to thank the person who put my image up for disqualification as I have learnt a valuable lesson from this. And I hope that by modifying the rules this may also prevent even just one other person from having their image disqualified too.

So thanks to the nominating person and also to the site council. I hope we can get this modification through the process.

Judi

saintaugust

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

12/22/2005 11:24:56 PM · #2

Originally posted by Judi:

i use very little ps.

that way, i don't break any rules any time.

but i also don't win ribbons.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

12/22/2005 11:28:27 PM · #3

Originally posted by saintaugust:

i use very little ps.

that way, i don't break any rules any time.

but i also don't win ribbons.

Now that would be an easy way to go...LOL!! I must try that...hehehe!!

radionin

Canon EOS-20D

12/22/2005 11:30:52 PM · #4

Photoshop is half the fun.... for me at least

I agree with Judi its a one time investment in time that would benfit all users and is 100% needed
WHO wants to get a photo DQed?

Tej

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

12/22/2005 11:36:43 PM · #5

I'm not too sure if I'm asking the right question - but does it mean I cannot use Gradient effect on my submission? I actully used gradient on my latest submission to emulate gradient filter effect (the actual glass filter with fading colour used on film cameras). I dont use photoshop but I used Picasa to get this effect.

Let me know if this is not allowed. I still have four more days to change the submission.

radionin

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

12/22/2005 11:37:55 PM · #6

Originally posted by tejinder:

yes thats allowed we are talking about post production effects

I think I misread yours alittle I think you broke the rules but you did it in a way that totaly would not get caught. hehe

Message edited by author 2005-12-22 23:43:24.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/22/2005 11:39:48 PM · #7

A gradient effect would not be allowed in Basic Rules challenges, because the effect is being applied differently to different areas of the photo.

You can use almost any Adjustment Layer, but not with any kind of selection/mask to make it selectively effect the photo.

Tej

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

12/22/2005 11:54:46 PM · #8

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I'm surprised to know. Isn't it the BASIC filter used will film cameras. In-fact I can achieve the same effect by using glass filter while taking the picture than why the restriction of not using it in postprocessing.

Anyway, I dont know much about layers and masks. I use simple PICASA for adding the effect and I dont think any of the effect on PICASA lets me do selective editing. And as the name suggest, "gradient" is fading color effect applied over "whole" photo (Its just that the color is darker at one end...and it invisible on another).

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/23/2005 12:00:38 AM · #9

It is doing automatically what you'd accomplish with a gradient mask and an adjustment layer.

Go ahead and use a glass filter on your camera -- anything you do prior to the data being captured is legal for all challenges.

But a (software) filter which applies its effect through a gradient is not legal for Basic Editing, regardless of whether you select the gradient manually or let the programmers do it for you.

You are welcome to solicit additional opinions on the matter -- this is mine.

Message edited by author 2005-12-23 00:01:13.

12/23/2005 12:01:57 AM · #10

Originally posted by tejinder:

Exactly...and that is what I used on my image and it was disqualified.....that is why I want the acceptable Adjustment Layers to be listed in the rules....to be prevent this kind of confusion amongst members.

Judi

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/23/2005 12:06:33 AM · #11

You are obviously lightening some of the pixels more than the others -- if not, you wouldn't be using the effect.

You are welcome to use this tool in Advanced Rules challenges.

radionin

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

12/23/2005 12:17:55 AM · #12

Isn't this just more evidence supoorting making some changes to the wording for a Basic Challenge

12/23/2005 12:27:48 AM · #13

Originally posted by radionin:

Isn't this just more evidence supoorting making some changes to the wording for a Basic Challenge

Yep....I totally agree with you. I hope they do it real soon as this thread is only new and already 2 people have realised that they are risking DQ's. How many others have been caught too??

Judi

Stagolee

Kodak Easyshare C180

Canon EF 50mm f1.2L

12/23/2005 12:33:28 AM · #14

Originally posted by Judi:

Judi I commend you on your attitude regarding your DQ, it's refreshing to see.

We have so many rules that we must abide by, so I agree any plain english rule description would be good.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

12/23/2005 12:37:18 AM · #15

Originally posted by keegbow:

Judi I commend you on your attitude regarding your DQ, it's refreshing to see.

We have so many rules that we must abide by, so I agree any plain english rule description would be good.

Aww thanks. But I figure we are here to learn...and if my mistake and this thread can help others than we all win. Things are done for a reason.

David.C

12/23/2005 12:50:20 AM · #16

Originally posted by GeneralE:

... But a (software) filter which applies its effect through a gradient is not legal for Basic Editing, regardless of whether you select the gradient manually or let the programmers do it for you. ...

Not trying to instigate anything, but since it doesn't matter if I make the selection or the programmers do -- why is shadow/highlight legal?

Not that I'm sorry it is, it is incredibly useful -- but, it doesn't seem to follow the same thinking as the rest of the interpretations.

David

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

12/23/2005 12:51:49 AM · #17

Well, reading the rules, I must say that the DQ is surprising. The gradient is a tool that functions similarly to a mask, but it not a mask in and of itself. The mask is shown in the adjustment layer to the right of the adjustment (in this case gradient), and as long as the mask is entirely white then it can be argued that the adjustment was applied evenly to the entire image. If the photographer had painted the mask black/gray in certain areas to affect the way the adjustment applied to certain portions of the image, than a DQ would be warranted.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

You are obviously lightening some of the pixels more than the others -- if not, you wouldn't be using the effect.

One could argue that other allowable adjustment layers do the same thing. For example, curves allows you to adjust the lightness of only the pixels within a certain tonal range.

I am not saying that I support the use of gradient in basic editing, but I AM saying that within the current wording of the rules, it seems easy to make a case for it. I would support adding a list of the specific adjustment layers which are allowable.

Dawn

Message edited by author 2005-12-23 00:54:44.

Prof_Fate

12/23/2005 12:55:07 AM · #18

The problem with listing specific layers that are allowed is that the names of them cary from one program to another - it is not feasible to list every possible adj layer for every program, current and old, plug in, etc. And even if the attempt was made, tomorrow CS3 would come out with new adj layers yet again.

muckpond

Nikon D200

12/23/2005 12:56:41 AM · #19

we should clarify that an Adjustment layer (capital "A") is a photoshop feature that allows you to apply certain effects to an image, but retain the information about the effect on a separate layer in the Layers palette. you are not creating or removing any pixels in this layer. it's essentially just an effect being applied on top.

a Layer (capital "L") contains pixel data. in this case, it seems that a new Layer was created and filled with a gradient and then blended into the background layer by changing the opacity. please correct me if i'm wrong.

it's important to understand the distinction between an Adjustment Layer (which is legal as long as it is applied to the entire image) and a Layer that is semi-transparent and, therefore, "adjusts" the layers below it, which is not legal. any time you add pixels to an image in a Basic editing challenge, you're asking for trouble.

almost any Adjustment Layer is allowed in basic editing, as long as it is applied to the entire image. therefore, you can't edit the mask of the Adjustment Layer that is added.

i hope this makes sense.

Message edited by author 2005-12-23 00:58:08.

12/23/2005 12:59:20 AM · #20

Prof - sure that's true, but the verbage need not be exact to get it's meaning across. There is verbage in other parts of the rules that lists features in PS terms, which may be called something else elsewhere. The list of what's allowable is likely to be relatively short. New software is issued annually, or less frequesntly. I think reviewing that portion of the rules as new features are released in a benefit rather than a drawback to the suggestion.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/23/2005 12:59:26 AM · #21

Originally posted by Britannica:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
... But a (software) filter which applies its effect through a gradient is not legal for Basic Editing, regardless of whether you select the gradient manually or let the programmers do it for you. ...

Not trying to instigate anything, but since it doesn't matter if I make the selection or the programmers do -- why is shadow/highlight legal?
David

Because Shadow/Highlight, Curves, Levels, Hue/Saturation, Selective Color, and all similar Adjustments (whether in a Layer or not), afftect pixels based on their color value.

Using this Gradient tool -- or any selection/mask/alpha channel -- rather effects pixels based on their physical location within the image. That's what makes it "selective" editing, even though the mask may be pre-configured in software.

You are allowed to make all pixels which are 35% gray into 28% gray. You are not allowed to make all pixels in the upper half of the photo 5% lighter than those in the lower half (to use a crude example).

Message edited by author 2005-12-23 01:01:03.

12/23/2005 01:02:39 AM · #22

Originally posted by muckpond:

AHA! Well, in this case, a DQ would be warranted. Your response makes perfect sense and clarifies everything. Just to drive the point home, can I get a simple yes/no to this question:

Can a user legally have two layers: Background (containing all pixel data) and Gradient Adjustment layer (containing no pixel data)?

12/23/2005 01:05:23 AM · #23

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Using this Gradient tool -- or any selection/mask/alpha channel -- rather effects pixels based on their physical location within the image. That's what makes it "selective" editing, even though the mask may be pre-configured in software.

You are allowed to make all pixels which are 35% gray into 28% gray. You are not allowed to make all pixels in the upper half of the photo 5% lighter than those in the lower half (to use a crude example).

So then, this seems to contradict muckpond's response, and then by this logic, I still think a revision to the rules is required to clarify this point.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/23/2005 01:06:42 AM · #24

Originally posted by just-married:

Can a user legally have two layers: Background (containing all pixel data) and Gradient Adjustment layer (containing no pixel data)?

You better explain just what you mean by "Gradient Adjustment."

There's no limit on the number of Adjustment Layers you're allowed.