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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Voters Without Cameras
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12/14/2005 10:18:44 AM · #1
Why are those people allowed to vote? They apprently don't participate in the forum at all except to vote in the challenges. I was noticing as I went through the scores for Too Late that these people often cast scores that are significantly lower than the rest of the voters. So, it appears that they're not here for any reason except to low-ball our scores. They're like those two grumpy old hecklers in the Muppet Show. Besides, what would be stopping someone from having all their family, friends, and co-workers register as "voter only," to up their scores and low-ball everyone else?

IMHO, only people who are actual participants in this site should be allowed to vote.
12/14/2005 10:21:35 AM · #2
I'd have to agree with you here . . . I add also, that one must have entered at least one challenge in order to vote.
12/14/2005 10:23:38 AM · #3
I tend to agree with you in general, however I know that one of my shots was favorated by someone who is a vote only. But in general I definatly agree. I was looking at the overall scores for the top 10 shots and all of them were given at least one 1. Honestly I dont get how thats possible. Is there someone out there who just give a 1 to everything?!?!
12/14/2005 10:25:15 AM · #4
I apparently got some good votes from the Voter Only crowd this last time too, but I still don't think they should be allowed to vote.
12/14/2005 10:26:22 AM · #5
or you could be like me who is just starting on this particular board, trying to get the feel of it and wondering if it's worth spending the $$ to post their shots....just a thought
12/14/2005 10:29:51 AM · #6
What would keep people with cameras from seeing other peoples photos and messing with the vote that way?

Nothing.

My daughter is registered as a voter without a camera..although she has my old Canon G2. She could easily register as a voter with a camera but she is 18 and old enough to do as she pleases ( as she is so often fond of reminding me ).

Does she vote my photos higher? Sometimes. But mainly because she sees me taking the photo and knows more about the intent and the effort that went into the photo and it affects her.

Is that fair? Dunno. Please refer to the previous statement "she does as she pleases"

My wife has access to about 30 potential voters at her work..they all know I am a hobby photogrpaher...none of them have ever visited DP Challenge..it all seems a bit weird to them.

All told..I have access to about 60 people who could vote for me. Considering there are only about 300 votes per challenge..I bet I could drive my score up a whole point if I wanted to.

Bottom line...if I did that..for what purpose? It proves nothing to me and isn't that why we are here..to have fun and learn something?

If it's just an electronic ribbon..so be it...Only you and God know for sure and I bet neither one are talking :-/

Message edited by author 2005-12-14 10:31:18.
12/14/2005 10:31:54 AM · #7
Why is voting on images restricted to those actually submitting entries? Just because someone doesn't have a 'digital' camera or any camera for that matter doesn't mean that they can't judge the photo.

Everyone has an opinion on art whether it be from the artistic or technical aspect. When you go to the art gallery do you not have an opinion of the exhibits? Do you actually participate in the art form you have formed an opinion on? If not, why do you have an opinion then.

As always, this is just an opinion.
12/14/2005 10:32:00 AM · #8
Been covered before. There are people with film cameras, photographers, but they cannot have their camera listed. There are others that do not own a camera, but are interested in the art of photography and may even buy a photo later...

I know (remember, actually) that some members were 'between cameras' and listed as no camera for a period of time.

Why limit votes to only camera owners? Does owning a piece of equipment (actually, does SELECTING SOMETHING ON YOUR PROFILE PAGE) suddenly makes you an expert?

I've (my score has) been both hurt and improved by these voters, but the truth is, I don't pay attention to this part of the statistics. The number of these voters is so small, that you really have to be 0.005 pts close to the adjacent place (ask scalvert about this) for those votes to matter.

Cheers!
12/14/2005 10:36:06 AM · #9
Some people just like viewing the photos and being involved but don't have a camera (or don't have a digital camera). I'm not sure about your observation that their vote is significantly lower. In a quick perusal of the Too Early and Too Late challenges I saw a number of images that got a higher score from the no camera voters, and of those that were lower, most weren't significantly lower. Part of the problem is that for the the camera voters it's the average of a couple hundred votes, for the no camera voters it's the average of like 3 or 4 (not a representative sampling) so if just one of those no camera voters doesn't like a certain photo, it drags their whole no camera average way down (think of it like the first 20 minutes of voting when your score is all over the place).

I see absolutely nothing wrong with allowing people without cameras to vote on images, the only thing it does is increase the number of votes (which is a good thing). As far as I can tell, this site is all about learning to improve our photography through an open community. Why should we exclude people because they don't have the means (not everyone can afford a camera, some older folks wont switch to digital because it's too complicated, etc.) to compete in the challenges? Even if they're not competing in challenges, if they're participating in any way (perticularly in a giving way, such as voting and commenting), I see them as valuable members of the community here.
12/14/2005 10:47:48 AM · #10
To expand on what SRDANZ said, if voting were to be restricted to those with cameras only, all anyone would have to do would be simply to select a camera on their preferences page.
12/14/2005 10:48:18 AM · #11
Okay, then following that logic why aren't basic members allowed to vote in the Exclusive Member Challenges? I'm not talking about submitting, I'm talking about voting.
12/14/2005 11:05:07 AM · #12
Originally posted by AJAger:

To expand on what SRDANZ said, if voting were to be restricted to those with cameras only, all anyone would have to do would be simply to select a camera on their preferences page.


Btw, Alan, love your SiPix Blink! How does it compare to Mark II?
12/14/2005 11:06:05 AM · #13
Some great view points have been brought up, but in the long run does a few .05% of the votes matter? I mean in reality all ya get is a virtual ribbon. I know I probibly will never get a ribbon, but I'm just a newbie here, and photography is a hobby. I personally enter challenges for the comments to become better...
12/14/2005 11:07:17 AM · #14
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:

Okay, then following that logic why aren't basic members allowed to vote in the Exclusive Member Challenges? I'm not talking about submitting, I'm talking about voting.


I would imagine that that is one of the 'perks' of paid membership.
12/14/2005 11:07:55 AM · #15
Originally posted by srdanz:

Originally posted by AJAger:

To expand on what SRDANZ said, if voting were to be restricted to those with cameras only, all anyone would have to do would be simply to select a camera on their preferences page.


Btw, Alan, love your SiPix Blink! How does it compare to Mark II?


The Blink wins in just about every category imaginable.
12/14/2005 12:22:11 PM · #16
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:

Okay, then following that logic why aren't basic members allowed to vote in the Exclusive Member Challenges? I'm not talking about submitting, I'm talking about voting.


I wouldn't complain if they were. More votes=more accurate score=good.
12/14/2005 12:30:51 PM · #17
why are people that can not paint allowed in art galleries?
why are people that can not write books allowed in libraries?
why are people that don't own a store allowed in a mall?
why are people who are not involved in film and advertising allowed to watch tv?

i think you see my point. There are a lot ofreasons that people don't have cameras. BradP was vote only for a while this year (should he has been kicked off the site?). I'm sorry, but everyone is cabable of looking at an image and telling if they like it or not. Thier vote is just as relevent - if not more so, since they represent the general public, rather than the photog's public - than everybody elses.
12/14/2005 12:32:38 PM · #18
I have been closely looking at all of my results in order to improve my photography. I have noticed in several challenges that my score by non-camera voters is believe it or not sometimes higher than camera voters. This is enough to make me wonder why. Further investigation points to challenges in which I went way outside the box were better received by non-camera folks than others. As a note, I have never had a great socre when going outside of the box. So I appreciate these non-camera scores. What is actually means is up for I would imagine another huge debate, but for me I like how I have rationalized them.
12/14/2005 12:41:56 PM · #19
Roger Ebert is one of the most famous movie critics of all time. Yet when he tried to make a movie he failed miserably (in the viewers and critics eyes).

Just because you aren't a master at the craft doesn't mean you don't understand the art.

I was a photo editor for a few years after college. I'm much better at critiquing photos than I am at taking them. They are separate skills and each must be honed separately.
12/14/2005 12:56:07 PM · #20
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:

Why are those people allowed to vote? They apprently don't participate in the forum at all except to vote in the challenges. I was noticing as I went through the scores for Too Late that these people often cast scores that are significantly lower than the rest of the voters. So, it appears that they're not here for any reason except to low-ball our scores. They're like those two grumpy old hecklers in the Muppet Show. Besides, what would be stopping someone from having all their family, friends, and co-workers register as "voter only," to up their scores and low-ball everyone else?

IMHO, only people who are actual participants in this site should be allowed to vote.

We just made a change that has the potential for decreasing the total numbers of votes in a challenge when we started doing two open challenges each week. I really don't think it would be a good idea to do anything that would further decrease the total number of votes. As kearock said: "More votes=more accurate score".

If you tried to exclude the no camera voters, the ones who are here to effect scores for friends (if there are any) would just say they bought a camera and continue on their merry way. But the newbies and the between camera people would be left out in the cold.

Edited to add: Sometimes the no camera voters comment on entries. They wouldn't bother to do that nearly as often if they were not allowed to vote.


Message edited by author 2005-12-14 21:00:29.
12/14/2005 12:59:06 PM · #21
.

Message edited by author 2005-12-14 21:01:35.
12/14/2005 01:21:11 PM · #22
Another photo site I used to belong to had a time delay between registering and being allowed to submit/vote. I believe it was just a week. That way you have to be serious enough about wanting to be involved with the site to wait a short time for privileges. It cut down on some random trolls though I think, as well as prevented "ballot stuffing" where people sign up their friends and family for the exclusive purpose of having them vote their photo up and other photos down.
12/14/2005 08:45:15 PM · #23
So, I guess that means if you don't paint, you can't judge if you like a painting or not. etc. etc. Does this mean that people can't critique movies because they don't direct them? The list could go on for ever.
Probably the majority of this world do not actually participate in making art but it doesn't mean they can't figure out what they like or what is good. So, that would also assume that people were too stupid to buy art, so lets close the galleries. It sounds ridiculous to me. If you don't want to be judged in a challenge then don't enter.
12/16/2005 12:43:17 PM · #24
Originally posted by Frankie Lu:

So, I guess that means if you don't paint, you can't judge if you like a painting or not. etc. etc. Does this mean that people can't critique movies because they don't direct them? The list could go on for ever.
Probably the majority of this world do not actually participate in making art but it doesn't mean they can't figure out what they like or what is good. So, that would also assume that people were too stupid to buy art, so lets close the galleries. It sounds ridiculous to me. If you don't want to be judged in a challenge then don't enter.


I agree it's pretty elitist to think otherwise especially when so many here are trying to sell their photos to these "common folk" people. I think you WANT to find out what these people view as good photos more so than the "experts" when it comes down to it.

Message edited by author 2005-12-16 12:44:07.
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