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11/04/2005 11:50:25 AM · #1
Just reading the threads and, as usual, see complaints about the comments left. I have to wonder why, as there surely is not ENOUGH comments left, why complain about the ones that you do not like, or disagree with. I know for my part getting called names and having things said about me which are not true hurt, and do make it very difficult for others to post comments knowing they MAY be taken to task here, or in a pm. If you get a comment you do not like, or think it is completely wrong, you should be able to just take it with a grain of salt, NOT mark it helpful and move along. Speaking for myself (and others that have pmed me about this subject), I know I do NOT try to detract from anyones work, I honestly TRY to tell them what I see that IN MY OPINION, may be improved, THAT IS ALL. Or give accolades where due, and throw in the odd pun once in a while. If you hate puns, and I leave one on your photo, it is okay to tell me that. To me it does NOT seem okay to make personal attacks on those that take the time to leave comments. Understand my definition of personal attacks/comments may be different than yours, but calling someone stupid, an idiot, or telling them they may be sick, or need eye exams, ARE personal attacks - and they should not be done. JUST IGNORE my (or others) comments if you disagree, or even pm me and tell me NICELY why you think I am incorrect, have no problem with that, but do NOT attack personally, or in an open forum, that is tasteless at the least, IN MY OPINION!!

Jacque
11/04/2005 12:04:40 PM · #2
Originally posted by olddj:

I know for my part getting called names and having things said about me which are not true hurt


Really??? Personally I could care less unless someone calls me a liar and then look out charlie cuz I'll leap thru the machine and kil that person where they sit(figuratively speak). People including myself are just assholes and the one thing I have learned is that you cannot make everybody have so to hell with them. Make yourself happy and then nothing else matters.

What bothers me and I haven't entered a challenge since is when someone gets offended with a comment I left because it wasn't pollitically correct. If the model was fat or had messy hair or whatever the case may be then I tell it like it is and if they don;'t like it then don't mark it helpful. I agree with you that people should just move on especially since that particular challenge I was trying to comment on all the photo's entered.

11/04/2005 12:07:49 PM · #3
Don't get discouraged by the bad apples. At a glance your comments don't seem to be offenses, but very polite. Keep the comments coming most of us appreciate the fact that you take the time to comment as much as you do. Very nice comment made to comment received ratio.
11/04/2005 12:17:52 PM · #4
I would welcome a comment of "this image does not appeal to me because..." or "your lighting is all wrong" or "not the best angle" or "a really bad DOF IMO" or just about anything explaining the reasoning behind a score of 1 then no explanation at all as to why an individual is scoring something so low. You are right there are very sensative subjects on the forums about people not liking the comments left or people leaving insensative or comments in poor taste.

But people if you are going to make it in the art world better grow a thicker skin. Clients tell me everyday that a mock up or design looks like crap and usually not that nicely AND guess what the client is always right! (Even if they're wrong). If you are just entering in the Challenges for fun and don't really care about bettering your photography skills from an artistic or professional standpoint and don't want people to CRITIZE your work - don't enter it just post it after the challenge and ask for opinions. But specify that you only want NICE opinions!

In my opinion the only enhancement I would make to this site is to make it MANDETORY that if you are scoring an image below a 3 you must at least give some small explanation. I have recieved a number of really nice comments on my entries - Thank You All that left them but VERY few comments on what I could do to IMPROVE an image.

But IMO Critisism should be CONSTRUCTIVE not "this looks like crap" but rather "this looks like crap because...fill in blank". Just my 2cents maybe 4.
11/04/2005 12:38:45 PM · #5
Right now I would like almost ANY comment on my "busy" entry, over 120 votes and not ONE comment. Oh well.

zapgrafx, I have made that suggestion (under three must leave comment) and was told it has been made many times before I got here, and considering how many fairly intelligent people that are here, am sure lots more have thought about it too. There are reasons against it, main one being that would just stop lots of people from leaving a one or two, making a three their lowest score given and thus skewing the averages. Probably true, but I feel it is also probably a good thing to do anyway.

pekesty, I will not give up, just was easier to make comments before I got such bad reactions from some. I never enjoy it, except for the accolade parts, those I always enjoy. But the real critiques are difficult to begin with and harder now because I know that some will react badly. Also, though I do appreciate the comment on the comments given to received ratio, I look at the comments given to votes cast ratio more, if it is UNDER 1 in five, to me that is very good. Would love it at 1 to 3 or so, but do not think that is possible for me.

notonline, I remember that time you said you were going for 100% comments, sorry one - or more- took your comments amiss. And I am a bit different than you in that my reaction to those attacks is usually to put another band aid over the bleeding area (in my "soul") and move on, unless the person stays with it and attacks more than once, then I will let them know I do not appreciate that type of response - knowing full well it RARELY does any good to do that, though I must admit one person did apologize after I pointed out what he had done. So it does some good at least on rare times.

Jacque
11/04/2005 12:41:16 PM · #6
Originally posted by zapgrafx:

I would welcome a comment of "this image does not appeal to me because..." or "your lighting is all wrong" or "not the best angle" or "a really bad DOF IMO" or just about anything explaining the reasoning behind a score of 1 then no explanation at all as to why an individual is scoring something so low. You are right there are very sensative subjects on the forums about people not liking the comments left or people leaving insensative or comments in poor taste.

But people if you are going to make it in the art world better grow a thicker skin. Clients tell me everyday that a mock up or design looks like crap and usually not that nicely AND guess what the client is always right! (Even if they're wrong). If you are just entering in the Challenges for fun and don't really care about bettering your photography skills from an artistic or professional standpoint and don't want people to CRITIZE your work - don't enter it just post it after the challenge and ask for opinions. But specify that you only want NICE opinions!

In my opinion the only enhancement I would make to this site is to make it MANDETORY that if you are scoring an image below a 3 you must at least give some small explanation. I have recieved a number of really nice comments on my entries - Thank You All that left them but VERY few comments on what I could do to IMPROVE an image.

But IMO Critisism should be CONSTRUCTIVE not "this looks like crap" but rather "this looks like crap because...fill in blank". Just my 2cents maybe 4.


Voting on challenges can be very busy and hectic making it difficult to leave good useful comments. We tend to get a little lazy after all that voting. If you really want valuable comments you'll need to post whichever photo to the appropriate thread, or start one of your own seeking feedback. You probably don't want to include opinions of your score when asking, people tend to think you're whining when you do that.

Message edited by author 2005-11-04 12:46:39.
11/04/2005 01:06:02 PM · #7
Originally posted by pekesty:



Voting on challenges can be very busy and hectic making it difficult to leave good useful comments. We tend to get a little lazy after all that voting. If you really want valuable comments you'll need to post whichever photo to the appropriate thread, or start one of your own seeking feedback. You probably don't want to include opinions of your score when asking, people tend to think you're whining when you do that.


Hadn't thought about the time factor you are right would take too long. I guess I am referring more to the fact that seeing all the threads about people complaining about comments, it makes me personally apprehensive about leaving comments that are critical. But I for one would welcome them.
11/04/2005 01:19:52 PM · #8
Originally posted by zapgrafx:

Originally posted by pekesty:



Voting on challenges can be very busy and hectic making it difficult to leave good useful comments. We tend to get a little lazy after all that voting. If you really want valuable comments you'll need to post whichever photo to the appropriate thread, or start one of your own seeking feedback. You probably don't want to include opinions of your score when asking, people tend to think you're whining when you do that.


Hadn't thought about the time factor you are right would take too long. I guess I am referring more to the fact that seeing all the threads about people complaining about comments, it makes me personally apprehensive about leaving comments that are critical. But I for one would welcome them.


Some people make being PC out to be a bad thing. But if you start your comment with what is right about their photo, they are more receptive to what you think could use improving in their photo. Remember some people will just complain about anything and everything. But most people are like you or me, they like receiving comments and always look for the value in them.
11/04/2005 02:39:54 PM · #9
Originally posted by zapgrafx:



Hadn't thought about the time factor you are right would take too long. I guess I am referring more to the fact that seeing all the threads about people complaining about comments, it makes me personally apprehensive about leaving comments that are critical. But I for one would welcome them.


That was my point in starting this discussion. Some people just do not think before they post something negative like that. And the ramifications can be far reaching, as in discouraging others to comment, when we can use more comments, not less.

I know I do not LIKE to receive comments on why someone voted my work a one, two or three, but - IN MY OPINION - it is much better to know why at least that ONE person voted it low. Probably if that one person is seeing something that detracts to him/her, then the odds say others see it too. May well be it is something that they misunderstood - so be it! If they misunderstood it, then I probably did not get my photographic point across well enough - to THAT person, and maybe that is why others who are afraid to comment, or will not for other reasons, are also voting it low.

Nice to see some open dialog without rancor, hope this stays that way and more threads get that way!!

Jacque
11/04/2005 03:39:45 PM · #10
Let's not forget the langauge barriers. There are alot of international members, english is a second language. Many times their comments may not come out as meant. Those that leave intentionally mean comments are best ignored, for the have no value. I know this thread is more about the negative PM's, but I sort of thought these remarks applied to the conversation.

Message edited by author 2005-11-04 15:40:19.
11/04/2005 03:49:09 PM · #11
For my 2 cents...Most of the comments I have received are helpful, or complimentary. I did get one that I thought was a little mean without being constructive, but I take it with a grain of salt. I have been learning from the comments I get, it will make me better. Saying everything I did, I did wrong, doesnt offer me much to work with.
When I comment I try to say at least one positive thing to accompany a criticism. I just think, I feel better about those kind of comments, perhaps others would too....
11/04/2005 04:19:51 PM · #12
pekesty, your comments certainly belong on this thread, I just started it to hopefully get it across to people here that if you constantly critisize the comments you receive, you will receive less comments. I did not mean for an iota that that was the only thing we could talk about. LOL Not at all. Your reference to language/translations are certainly appropriate, and make sense too.

Rae-Ann, sorry you received a "bad" comment (certainly do not think it was one of mine, sure hope not anyway). Purely bad comments, as in yours, or the one that said "Yuck" are certainly not well thought out, helpful at all, or very nice either. So glad you were able to take it and not let it get to you. Just had a thought, would the "Yuck" be okay for one of the vomitoriums?? LOL I had someone tell me one of my photos looked like roadkill, not much I could do with that either, except laugh it off, and not mark it helpful. Am fairly sure they meant it as a joke, but no way to be positive about that.

Jacque

11/04/2005 07:00:43 PM · #13
Originally posted by olddj:



Rae-Ann, sorry you received a "bad" comment (certainly do not think it was one of mine, sure hope not anyway). Purely bad comments, as in yours, or the one that said "Yuck" are certainly not well thought out, helpful at all, or very nice either. So glad you were able to take it and not let it get to you. Just had a thought, would the "Yuck" be okay for one of the vomitoriums?? LOL I had someone tell me one of my photos looked like roadkill, not much I could do with that either, except laugh it off, and not mark it helpful. Am fairly sure they meant it as a joke, but no way to be positive about that.

Jacque

ok, I am red faced to admit I did leave a Yikes! comment on Slippy's white on white vomit entry!
Funny, or punny, works for me....but mostly I like the ones that do not like my pic but explain to me technically why they do not like it. And , again, 99% of peeps here go beyond helpful! I am so digging this site and learning soo much...
Maybe one day I'll break 5.5!
11/05/2005 06:00:14 PM · #14
Hope I am not too late to join in this, I just entered my second challenge, and am trying to post comments when I can see something I think the photograph could use. I realize it is just my opinion, but I thought that was what this site in particular was about, trying to help others and telling them what I see - good or bad. But I honestly have major problems now leaving "critiques" as I am new and do not want to offend anyone, for any reason, here. Just seeing those remarks about getting people calling you names and saying you need glasses tends to make me leave fewer comments, especially where I am seeing something not so good. Hope that makes sense to all.
11/05/2005 06:56:21 PM · #15
A comment is a reflection of the commentator. I want them all - opinion as well as technical criticism. Sure, some may hurt, but get over it - they give you a read on the world out there and there is nothing worse than insulating yourself from the rest of the world (politically, academically, artistically or otherwise).
11/05/2005 07:01:46 PM · #16
Olddj:

While there are a few exceptions, the vast majority of us appreciate honest feedback.

Personal attacks are never appropriate on DPC. If you receive one, please let Site Council know so we can take a look at it, and take whatever action is appropriate.

The same goes for anyone receiving comments: If you receive a comment that is patently mean (rather than constructive), please let Site Council know. While we will allow comments on the photograph itself (even if the wording is a bit harsh), we will not allow personal attacks or rudeness for the sake of rudeness.

~Terry

Message edited by author 2005-11-05 19:03:51.
11/06/2005 12:41:46 PM · #17
Thank you Terry - for taking the time and effort to respond and your response itself.

Think it is a part of life and I accept that I cannot please or be friends with everyone - no matter how hard I do try. I do understand this and that is why, although they hurt, I do not respond in kind or let them get to me TOO much. I will continue to leave comments whenever I feel I honestly can. Maybe I will report one that is truly abusive, but the ones I have received, on these boards and in pm's have not been THAT abusive.

They still are to me personal attacks, IE you need glasses, you should see a doctor because you may be sick, from looking at your photos you obviously never think outside the box, etc etc etc. They are not harsh, but they are personal attacks, and as long as it happens only once, I will continue to ignore them myself, but they DO make it more difficult for others knowing they may receive the same type treatment - or even worse - if they say something the owner of the photograph may not like.

That was/is the only point I am trying to make, all anyone has to do is IGNORE comments you disagree with, do NOT check them helpful, even POLITELY pm the commenter and explain your reasoning. I KNOW I have gone back and changed comments after a fault in my thinking was pointed out. Just this vote I have done that, it is NOT difficult to do. Anyway, hope everyone is having/had a nice weekend and do hope the negativity about "bad" comments lessens a lot!!

Jacque
11/06/2005 01:48:47 PM · #18
Isn't this why all you enter these challenges? To get critiqued? To learn something that you didn't know before? (name calling excluded) Do you think if you were in some art school somewhere that you could hang something on the wall and actually not hear some harsh
remarks...that is not going to happen. The art world is just a vicious as an other business. and it probably seems worse simply because it is just so personal. It's naturally difficult to separate yourself from your work. So hire someone to represent you and then you can just hear all the nice stuff and they can edit out the "bad". I am an artist, not a photographer and feel it is inappropriate for me to make comments that tell you guys how to do stuff. I can, on the other hand, identify what I like and what I don't like. Sometimes that means a photograph really is crappy and sometimes it probably means I don't know what I am talking about, sometimes I can instantly recognize talent and sometimes I can't. Critiques either way should be helpful, and maybe semi-lame comments by some like me can be beneficial too.
11/06/2005 03:02:27 PM · #19
What I have learned in my 1 year and 6 days on this site:

Appreciate the comments you get, keep what you can use and mark them as helpful, remember that negative comments are usually more useful than positive ones, 'toss' the useless or rude ones and get over it, and "IMO" is ALWAYS implied (the "H" is optional) - even if commenters use words like "right" and "wrong".
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