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11/02/2005 01:49:30 PM · #26
I agree with jhonan. "Desolation" ceased to be a Photograph in my mind, and I scored it lower. (It is a fabulous composition, but not worthy in my mind of a Blue in Photography, IMO) I like the 2nd place for the same reasons as jhonan
and agree that #3 was the best of the three.
11/02/2005 01:58:40 PM · #27
Originally posted by jrjr:

I agree with jhonan. "Desolation" ceased to be a Photograph in my mind, and I scored it lower. (It is a fabulous composition, but not worthy in my mind of a Blue in Photography, IMO)


If you removed the grain from "Desolation" and then ran a touch of neat image over it to smooth it out a little, you'd be hard-pressed at 640 pixels to decide if it was a photograph or a painting, I think. So I can see where jrjr is coming from. I'm not sure I agree that it's no longer a "photograph", though. It seems to me to be a silly distinction. It is what it is, and it works, and it was made with a camera from the beginning, so...

I'd prefer it, personally, if people stopped trying to make these distinctions in their voting/judgment and just rated images on their power & presentation, their inherent merits, but obviously s lot of people don't agree with that...

R.
11/02/2005 01:59:13 PM · #28
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I gave this a 7 without comment. I will say though that I had bumped it from a 6 at the last minute by perusing my 6's and having it catch my eye. It does seem fitting that Joey would win blue on this challenge as this seems to be his forte. I don't think people recognized his dad. The muted colors work wonders with the grain and I had to enjoy it because going in I had thought that a color shot would be at a strong disadvantage.

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I gave Heida a 6 without comment. I do love the grain and in general I gave my highest scores to people who really were not scared to give their picture grain. I think, to me, the piciture is a little uninspiring. The technicals are excellent, but the subject doesn't speak to me. That's, of course, an opinion as we all hold Heida's ability in high regard.

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I gave gaurawa a 9 with the following comment:
"nice. A good amount of grain which adds to the impact of the picture. I like it. 9"
Ok, that isn't exactly helpful, but you can see that I did favor the very grainy pics. The boys expression in combination with the fake tattoo were just priceless. He seems the human equivalent of a terrier. A little dog who thinks he is a big dog. His expression, the tattoo, and his arms all covey a bit of "menacing" power, but then his ears just belie his true little boy nature.

I actually did not give a 10 in this challenge (happens in the smaller ones at times), so the 9 was the top.

As a Top 10 finisher I will end by saying I feel that at least 5 of the 6 entries above me deserved to be there. They were all excellent. (I'm a little wishy-washy on one, but no worries...) I found this challenge to be great as I had never used grain before and got a taste for it. I'm pretty chicken to use it in another challenge because I know the tastes of the audience, but I may use it in some of my personal work...
11/02/2005 02:22:38 PM · #29
This is an interesting read, all the thoughts on the top three 'Image Grain' challenge entries. Of what I've read I'd align myself with the thoughts of Jason (DrAchoo).

One point I would like to make on a 'Food for Thought' basis, is that the 'Armchair Quarterbacking' is fun but there must be some reason that the top three images percolated to the top of the heap...by popular consensus most people enjoyed them enough to vote them highly.

In other words, this 'Art' sells. It's popular.

I'm not trying to take away from any technical merits or pitfalls being pointed out quite eloquently, it's just that people are going to seek out what "moves" them regardless of pure technical merits. That's a human factor that always needs to be considered (but rarely understood!). ;^)
11/02/2005 02:28:58 PM · #30
Bear-
This is not Photoshop Challenge, It is Digital Photography Challenge. Secondly, To be very democratic, I would prefer that anyone witha digital camera could enter and compete, not just those with advanced editing tools and skills.
--JR
11/02/2005 02:41:19 PM · #31
OK you two, do not get this thread off topic, it's one of the best there has been in a little while. Pick it up in another thread if you want...
11/02/2005 02:44:28 PM · #32
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

OK you two, do not get this thread off topic, it's one of the best there has been in a little while. Pick it up in another thread if you want...


The comment was made by jhonan, and followed up on by jrjr, in critiquing the photo, that it bordered on "digital art"; I agreed with his comment, and added my perspective to it. I agree with you that tis is not the thread to "debate" that old, tired topic, and I don't intend to.

I don't think it's off-track to comment in a critique that the image seems more digital than photographic, if that's how the critiquer feels...

Robt.

Message edited by author 2005-11-02 14:47:41.
11/02/2005 04:41:10 PM · #33
I have no problem with the winning shots, I just misinterpreted the amount of "added noise" needed to appeal to the voters.

The size is always a problem in my opinion, maybe a quick look at my slightly larger out-takes on Pbase would prompt a comment or two ?

I would be grateful.
Paul.Grain out-takes
11/02/2005 05:50:04 PM · #34
Oh well, I gave them 4, 4 and 5. Shows what I know about photography and grain....
11/02/2005 06:06:45 PM · #35
Originally posted by jhonan:


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1st 'Desolation'
The mood is enhanced by the post-processing addition of grain. My only gripe is exactly that, the post-processing. The addition of image grain is one thing, but this has taken a step further to give that 'painted' grungy feel. Perhaps verging on digital art? The question is where to draw the line between digital art and photography.

Yup, I'd agree with you it is on the verge of digital art, but I like photos that way and apparantly the voters did too. I wanted my dad in the picture to have a painted look because of the rural theme and mood. It doesn't bother me that I'm not doing strict classic photography because it's all art and that's what is important to me. My oppinion is if you need something in a picture to get the point across, do it. If you can get away with the editing in the challenge rules than the rest is left up to the voters and they will give you an idea of how they feel about it. Of course not everyone favors the digital look and that's cool, it would be boring without the variety of stuff I see here. :-)

11/02/2005 06:07:28 PM · #36
I used ISO3200 and still had to sharpen and increase contrast which killed my image.

If I was smarter I would've pulled out the P&S instead of using the dslr.

It's about using the right tool for the job.

bazz.
11/02/2005 06:37:13 PM · #37
Grain produced from the camera settings in combination with a subject and composition which meld together to become a powerful visual statement is the skill. To take a 'picture' and add grain and 'dodge and burn it to death' and 'grunge' it, are not. That is something else and no longer has anything to do with photography. Personal art and expression maybe, but the flaws in photography which contain it as a secondary art form are only exaggerated and perpetuated...

Message edited by author 2005-11-02 18:41:17.
11/02/2005 07:38:22 PM · #38
Originally posted by azoychka:

Grain produced from the camera settings in combination with a subject and composition which meld together to become a powerful visual statement is the skill. To take a 'picture' and add grain and 'dodge and burn it to death' and 'grunge' it, are not. That is something else and no longer has anything to do with photography. Personal art and expression maybe, but the flaws in photography which contain it as a secondary art form are only exaggerated and perpetuated...


Maybe you should read the challenge description more carefully. Nowhere does it state that the grain needed to produced from the camera settings and for what it's worth more skill was involved in the post production.

I rated these 10,6,7. The winner was obvious with the amount and style of grain creating the feel and mood of the image. The second was very good also but I just didn't like the central bright light, too much contrast for the dark image. The third was a great portriat with the grain adding a lot of emotion.
11/02/2005 08:09:42 PM · #39
I added most of my grain and grunge "Joey-style". Mine was only 20th place, but it just won POTD on Digital Image Cafe, which is judged rather than voted. It's also quite competitive and difficult to get shots chosen, so I'd say more than just DPC voters like the painterly effects of grunge and grain!

FWIW, I think Joey's photo is a work of art and absolutely deserved BLUE.


11/02/2005 08:10:26 PM · #40
Originally posted by keegbow:

Maybe you should read the challenge description more carefully. Nowhere does it state that the grain needed to produced from the camera settings and for what it's worth more skill was involved in the post production.

I rated these 10,6,7. The winner was obvious with the amount and style of grain creating the feel and mood of the image. The second was very good also but I just didn't like the central bright light, too much contrast for the dark image. The third was a great portriat with the grain adding a lot of emotion.


The description is irrelevant. Extreme processing alters and distorts what might have been good in the photos. They become caricatures of life. More Hollywood then reality. It is a taste but is not photographic skill. It is processing tricks. I like real life, not buildings that look ready to bounce all over the screen and tunnels that appear more from the Twilight Zone.
11/02/2005 08:24:43 PM · #41
Let's see, play recording "new school vs. old school argument #5"....

...oh yeah, are you telling me the masters like Ansel Adams didn't know their way around a darkroom?...

blah blah blah. Azoychka, you are 100% entitled to that opinion and 100% entitled to vote your opinion. Joey followed the rules of this site and, thusly, deserves the blue. The editorializing gets us nowhere. Make sure to end sentences like "extreme processing alters and distorts what might have been good in the photos" with "in my opinion". I'm unaware of any authority you can otherwise claim such a statement as absolute truth.

I'm not trying to invalidate you. I'm just saying that if you say "...'fraid so" and someone says "...'fraid not" we could go back and forth forever and neither of you would be more or less right.

I'd like to hear what more people thought about all 3 pictures...
11/02/2005 08:30:09 PM · #42
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm not trying to invalidate you. I'm just saying that if you say "...'fraid so" and someone says "...'fraid not" we could go back and forth forever and neither of you would be more or less right.

I'd like to hear what more people thought about all 3 pictures...


Me too. I'd like to hear more. The 3rd picture was a moment in time and 1 and 2 were of no time. They were only cliches...
11/02/2005 08:40:39 PM · #43
Originally posted by azoychka:

Me too. I'd like to hear more.


It sounds like you have a lot to say about the winning shots. Have you thought about writing a critique yourself (in a similar style to mine or DrAchoo's) ?
11/02/2005 08:52:35 PM · #44
Originally posted by jhonan:

Originally posted by azoychka:

Me too. I'd like to hear more.


It sounds like you have a lot to say about the winning shots. Have you thought about writing a critique yourself (in a similar style to mine or DrAchoo's) ?


I'd like to hear it too. (seriously)
11/02/2005 08:57:40 PM · #45
Oh, he's good at side-stepping... ;^)

Same type question was asked in the thread linked below. Quote from thread:
Originally posted by glad2badad:

You could write one I'm quite sure...

Originally posted by azoychka:

I would like to see that critique.


post challenge results discussion.
11/02/2005 09:08:03 PM · #46
Well I added my grain with processing in this photo. I am very happy with my score. I thought that it would bomb because it is a little strange and I spelled the name wrong like a big idiot.
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I did not add grain in this photo. I don't know how I got the grain...it just happened.
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11/02/2005 09:17:18 PM · #47
Originally posted by mandyturner:

I did not add grain in this photo. I don't know how I got the grain...it just happened.


I'd guess the grain in that was caused by the 4 sec shutter speed.
11/02/2005 09:49:32 PM · #48
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Oh, he's good at side-stepping... ;^)


:-p
11/02/2005 11:37:27 PM · #49
I thought I would join the commentary on the three shots... even though I missed out on the voting. The idea of sharing what appealed to people is, imho, a great way to learn about artistic elements and details I should pay more attention to.

Joey’s “Desolation”:
Composition - I think this was perfect. The main focus (his Dad) standing in his rule of third line, looking into the wind... even leaning into the wind with a little defiance. (Thank you hair and reeds for illustrating the wind.) The picture’s co-star is the heaver building which, by perfect distancing from it, visually evens out and balances the image. Horizon placement was spot on... the reeds run enough distance to give depth and texture before turning the background over to a most dramatic sky. (Environmentally... Someone upstairs likes Joey :)

Exposure - I’m afraid this is hard to evaluate since I don’t understand all the processing. (Someone mentioned a Grunge tutorial by Joey... but I can’t find it) The image does have full darks and full lights. Certainly no overblown white, but I do feel a loss of detail in some of the shadows (and his clothes). I also wonder what a wider mid-tone would look like. So, to me, it seems a little under-exposed, but this was probably a deliberate effort in “Joey’s look.”

Grain - This was a great example of both grunge and grain... I agree that they are different features and both were executed every well. The subject matter lent itself to the grunge look and the look contributed to the story being told. (It reminds me of how a movie’s special effects can enhance the story or overshadow the story - this enhanced.)

Conclusion - I only hope I can be this good some day... Emotion filled, powerful image showing hardship. Enjoy a well earned ribbon. The question to me would then be... can you keep the grunge, but give back some light and the detail interest it brings? I hope they are not mutually exclusive.

11/02/2005 11:46:05 PM · #50
Here's the thread with Joey's Grunge tutorial...

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