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11/24/2002 11:48:40 PM · #1
Originally posted by Anachronite:
Originally posted by Journey:
I for one rather stay alive with my civil liberties curtailed a bit than being bombed to death with my full civil liberties intact.



Just a few names come to mind Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, Osama Bin Laden. This is just an observation of someone who grew up with Communism, and had his father interagated and beaten up for the greater good of the society.


11/24/2002 11:23:47 PM · #2


This comment could invite a lengthy political debate that really doesn't belong on dpc. I for one rather stay alive with my civil liberties curtailed a bit than being bombed to death with my full civil liberties intact.



Nonsense! Live free or die!
11/24/2002 11:01:46 PM · #3
Oooh, you all are so sweet. Thank you! Feel free to use my idea. I also put on the sleeve of the sweatshirt(my 13 years olds suggestion) is d p c h a l l e n g e going down from the shoulder to the hand. This is what they do for skateboard shirts. I am now cool in his eyes. :)
11/24/2002 09:35:30 PM · #4
Sonifo: Great shirt design. Should be able to get iron-on transfers for about $15/package of 10.
Gracious: Love your new tagline.

I've thought we should make a DPC shirt with all the member taglines/quotations, either alone or with the member's name/thumbnail image. Could probably fit 1-200 on both sides of a shirt.
11/24/2002 09:32:32 PM · #5
Originally posted by Sonifo:
I have made myself a hooded sweatshirt with dpchallenge ironed on the sleeve and my picture and user name on the front and back. The websites address is also on there. People seem to like it and hardly ever question me. They are so interesting in the picture. The sweat shirt I bought for $15.00 and the iron on transfer paper cost $7.00. Not bad for walmart. Shirt design

Your sooooo clever! Fantastic idea. Great job.

11/24/2002 09:29:24 PM · #6
Originally posted by Sonifo:
I have made myself a hooded sweatshirt with dpchallenge ironed on the sleeve and my picture and user name on the front and back. The websites address is also on there. People seem to like it and hardly ever question me. They are so interesting in the picture. The sweat shirt I bought for $15.00 and the iron on transfer paper cost $7.00. Not bad for walmart. Shirt design

Sonja, that is beautiful! What a clever use of your fine photographs. I really like it a lot.

11/24/2002 01:54:01 PM · #7
I have made myself a hooded sweatshirt with dpchallenge ironed on the sleeve and my picture and user name on the front and back. The websites address is also on there. People seem to like it and hardly ever question me. They are so interesting in the picture. The sweat shirt I bought for $15.00 and the iron on transfer paper cost $7.00. Not bad for walmart. Shirt design
11/24/2002 01:49:12 PM · #8
Note: I've inactivatd the link to the potential DPC version. There is still an active link to someone else's version up there somewhere.
11/24/2002 01:36:50 PM · #9
Journey... You've made valid points and stated them well... I'm backing out of this thread since it seems to be turning hostile and I've decided to avoid threads that do that. Be aware that your points have been heard and well taken... Thanks...
11/24/2002 01:26:27 PM · #10
Originally posted by myqyl:
Your point about possible taint to the DPC name strikes a chord with me though... Unless this is sanctioned by Drew and Langdon, I will likely open myself a eNews site and issue myself a pass from that.

The point here is that it's not fraud if you document an event and share it with others. That's the definition of "the Press". At least in the US.


Good points (and a great example I didn't copy!). If you pay for a domain and publish/distribute news you are a "newspaper," and (in the US) should enjoy exactly the same priviledges and responsibilities as the New York Times, if we're to be consistent in out application of the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

It just occurred to me that they have a lawyer working with them on site issues for DPC2 -- I'll sent them a note to review this thread.

* This message has been edited by the author on 11/24/2002 1:26:04 PM.
11/24/2002 01:18:40 PM · #11
No one in a "civilized" nation -- let me repeat, no-one -- can decide who or what is a media outlet. I have a news-oriented website and therefore I can legitimately call myself a member of the press. No government -- except those despotic places like the dictatorships in Turkmenistan, Iraq etc -- can decide what is or is not a media outlet. To do so would certainly violate the US Constitution, for example, and is also against the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Again, as the General and myqyl have said (but which some readers are ignoring, and it is therefore worth repeating) there is a difference between a Press card and Press Credentials. Credentials mean you have been registered and approved to cover a specific event or place or series of events (a conference, the White House, the Olympics, etc). To forge these is, and should be, an offense. Press cards on the other hand do nothing than claim that the holder is a member of the press, working for a particular outfit or freelance (see first para above). By definition they can only be phony if one claims one is working for, say, The New York Times, when one isn't.


11/24/2002 01:16:47 PM · #12
Originally posted by Journey:
Are you making yourself the authority of what represents bogus or inappropriate?

Sure -- we all make judgements every day, and I'm prepared to present logical arguments in favor of mine, and take responsibility for subsequent actions.
As an example, a year before 9/11, I tried to get on a plane with Isaac's plastic baseball bat securely strapped to the outside of my suitcase. Security attempted to confiscate it because a "baseball bat" is considered a potential weapon. I chose to protest -- what would you do?
I'm not in favor of blindly "following orders" from governments or other sources, especially when they derive their authority from accumulated wealth rather than exemplary moral behavior.
But you're right, we should probably move this discussion to the Rant section if it's to continue in this vein...
11/24/2002 01:04:04 PM · #13
Originally posted by Journey:
I for one rather stay alive with my civil liberties curtailed a bit than being bombed to death with my full civil liberties intact.


[/i]

then you don't deserve the freedom you have...

11/24/2002 01:02:51 PM · #14
Journey, those are very valid points, but I think you misunderstand the difference between "Press Pass" and "Press Credentials". A 'Press Pass' merely states that you have decided to call yourself a journalist and that you are documenting events. It can not be used to gain access to any secure event. Access comes with "Press Credentials". This is a document issued by an event or a government agency. Most large cities will issue Press Credentials that will get you past certain police lines by showing you are not 'part' of an event, you are 'documenting' it.

A Press Pass is useful for a couple of things. Some folks are very self conscious about taking photos in public. This can lend them a degree of 'I belong here' to the average pedestrian. It can also help help in getting cooperation from 'protesters' in getting the shot you want. I was at an anti-war rally in the 80's and someone with a 'Press Pass' asked 4 or 5 folks if they would help him with a shot he wanted of a banner. Nothing major... He just needed someone to move 2 feet to left so a banner showed and wanted someone else to hang their guitar over their back and turn to look at the banner. We looked at his pass and figured it would be in our best interest to hep him out. We were there to be heard and he was there to publicize what we had to say. At the same time, folks without "Passes" were either viewed as tourists or (to the more paranoid among us) as CIA. The press pass he flashed looked real nice, but even after he explained that he had a readership measured in the dozens instead of the thousands, we helped him with his shot.

Your point about possible taint to the DPC name strikes a chord with me though... Unless this is sanctioned by Drew and Langdon, I will likely open myself a eNews site and issue myself a pass from that.

The point here is that it's not fraud if you document an event and share it with others. That's the definition of "the Press". At least in the US.
11/24/2002 12:57:40 PM · #15
Originally posted by GeneralE:


I myself would pobably NOT use one to actually try and get into a truly restricted area unless the restrictions were clearly "bogus" or inappropriate. I would also never claim that it represents anything other than what it is -- essentially a membership card in a photography club.


Are you making yourself the authority of what represents bogus or inappropriate?


While acknowledging the need for some security measures, I am also prepared to protest the denial of my civil liberties those measures are ostensibly intended to protect

This comment could invite a lengthy political debate that really doesn't belong on dpc. I for one rather stay alive with my civil liberties curtailed a bit than being bombed to death with my full civil liberties intact.


11/24/2002 12:33:58 PM · #16
You are all raising some valid issues, and helping us remember that we live under a variety of conditions. If anyone wants to use something like this, they will have to make their own judgement about its legality and propriety. It's easy enough to take off the DPC logo so that each is the individual responsibility of the person who prints it.

I myself would pobably NOT use one to actually try and get into a truly restricted area unless the restrictions were clearly "bogus" or inappropriate. I would also never claim that it represents anything other than what it is -- essentially a membership card in a photography club.

I carefully worded everything so that it forms its own disclaimer -- it can't be considered a "counterfeit" unless it attempts to exactly reproduce an original, and it makes no claims to being a license for anything.

While acknowledging the need for some security measures, I am also prepared to protest the denial of my civil liberties those measures are ostensibly intended to protect.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
--Benjamin Franklin


* This message has been edited by the author on 11/24/2002 12:32:20 PM.
11/24/2002 12:10:35 PM · #17
Originally posted by stephan:

As far as I understand from your postings that's the difference to the US. The press pass actually means something here and thus you can get in trouble for counterfeiting an official document.



That's another issue you brought up here against the card. It will be made available to members residing in countries where press passes have some meaning and where this dpc press pass might be considered counterfeiting.

I don't know a thing about press passes but suspect that official press passes really work pretty much they do in Germany. And if it is not an official press pass, it's a meaningless piece of laminated paper and the use of it may backfire on you and may make you look silly, or worse.

11/24/2002 06:17:06 AM · #18
I read some info on the web and in Germany it's like that: An official press pass (Presseausweis) can only be issued by a couple of journalists associations. You have to prove that your're a journalist as your primary occupation. So not everybody can just issue a press pass themself. You really have to be from the press. Otherwise the name "press pass" would be a bit silly ;-)

Some newspapers/magazines issue an emplyee pass, which just shows that the owner works for them. This is no official document and it won't get you behind police barriers or anywhere where "normal" people aren't allowed, but I think that depends on the kind of event and the person who stops you.

As far as I understand from your postings that's the difference to the US. The press pass actually means something here and thus you can get in trouble for counterfeiting an official document.

So far I called myself a "free photographer" when asked by police or so. But it didn't get me anywhere ;-)

11/24/2002 02:06:49 AM · #19
Just because a press pass is "actually nothing", it is just meant to fool some gullible people into believing it is something. I won't get one as i don't like the idea; it has an aura of fake.

I see a (probably minor) potential for problems/embarrassment/tainting of the name for dpc with it. DPC issues the blank card and its name is on the card. Who's to say someone will not put totally phony info on it, try to get into an unauthorized event/facility with it, gets stopped/arrested by real cops, the pass is taken by them, etc?

In order to gain access to a facility once (people were incredibly concerned about security, don't know why exactly) for making some pictures I had to give my business card and that was fine by me. It made me feel more comfortable than if I had waved around a meaningless press pass that was really just a "joke".

After 9/11 everybody has become much more security conscious. That's good and I want to do my bit for that rather than trying to beat the system because i just, frivolously, happen to want to make some pictures in a place where i am not really authorized to be.
11/23/2002 10:01:03 PM · #20
A press pass is actually nothing... Anyone can decide at anytime that they are a journalist and print up a press pass.

Press Credentials are another thing entirely... They are issued by the organizer of an event or a government agency to cover access to specific events and forging them can get you in all kinds of trouble.

I'm unsure about international law, but "Press Passes" don't seem to have any legal status at all so my guess is it would be as "legitimate" in the UK as it is in the US or anywhere... Of course the truth of the matter is it's not "legitimate" anywhere :) But it might get you past a rent-a-cop or get you co-operation from some protesters :)

DISCLAIMER : I ain't a lawyer and I could be wrong about any or all of what I've said :)
11/23/2002 08:51:58 PM · #21
Cool, but a little frightening.. because I don't fully understand the rules about press passes....

11/23/2002 07:50:20 PM · #22
If you have a simple website then the Press Pass is perfectly legitimate. Press passes, per se, are not legal documents. However, if you tried to pass it off as, say, a press pass issued by an embassy or the New York Times, then you might cause yourself some issues.

I think it is a great idea.
11/23/2002 07:34:49 PM · #23
I Don't think the first amendment holds much weight in the UK and other countries. I wonder what the legalities of a press pass are outside of the US.
11/23/2002 07:34:28 PM · #24
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by myqyl:


I guess there's nothing new...
The text at the top is the First Amendment to the US Constitution (with just a little formatting emphasis added):
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the
press
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a
redress of grievances.

The bottom type reads:
This is not to be construed as an OFFICIAL PASS
issued by any government agency


Looks good to me.
11/23/2002 07:26:04 PM · #25
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by myqyl:
[i]At 1st I was a bit dubious about the legality of this, but after a little research, Sign Me UP!!! You may want to design a 'back' for the pass as well :)

Also, this link may be of interest to some :)


I guess there's nothing new...
The text at the top is the First Amendment to the US Constitution (with just a little formatting emphasis added):
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the
press
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a
redress of grievances.

The bottom type reads:
This is not to be construed as an OFFICIAL PASS
issued by any government agency[/i]

how about if you delete the last part, "This is not to be construed as an OFFICIAL PASS
issued by any government agency".. let them think what they want.. as long as you don't imply your with a government agency, it should be ok
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