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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Question on the winner's picture..
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11/13/2002 06:13:03 PM · #1
Looks like the winning picture (urban legend) used Layers to get that effect. Is there a FAQ that lists all of the editing features that we can use? I know we can't use Filters except for Sharpen and Despeckle... So I'm assuming now that we can use ANYTHING other then filters?

Thanks!
11/13/2002 06:18:15 PM · #2
Chris, the winner did not use layers.

(From the comments below the photo)
ppritche - 11/11/2002
I know I misspelled the word "haunted" and I apologize. I didn't realize it until after the posting deadline ended. A lot of you asked how it was done:
OK, Here is how it is done. First set my camera to the settings described above. I used low lighting in the room (100W table lamp at about 10'.)
As soon as the shutter is opened the flash was executed, (on the G1 if the flash is on it will happen automatically) right after the flash is over have the subject hit the floor and get out of the frame quick.
Try it, this technique has been around for a very long time for film users.



* This message has been edited by the author on 11/13/2002 6:18:30 PM.


* This message has been edited by the author on 11/13/2002 6:18:56 PM.
11/13/2002 06:23:06 PM · #3
If you look at the winner's comments on the photo itself you will see that he explains how he did it (i.e. not using layers).

The statement in the Rules that

"Post-shot Adjustments may be made to your image in a photo editing program, so long as the modification is applied to the whole image. This includes levels, b&w conversion, hue/saturation, sizing/rotating, cropping etc. However, no filters (or non-Photoshop equivalent) maybe be applied to your image with the exception of sharpen and despeckle, the two of which are allowed. Absolutely no spot-editing is allowed; the use of any type of selection tool is prohibited."

seems pretty clear to me.
11/13/2002 06:44:18 PM · #4
Seeker, I just looked again and couldn't find the comments made by the photographer. I'm probably just blind and missed it. That's a really cool technique.

Dieselbiscuit, I just re-read that paragraph. So I guess we can use layers since that paragraph doesn't say we can't and it's not a filter, and doesn't involve a selection tool, and is applied to the entire image. Anyone disagree with this?
11/13/2002 06:57:17 PM · #5
Layers are definitely not allowed as you would need to take more then one photo to accomplish it or by adding some other element that was not in the original photo. You are only allowed to take 1 photo and you are not allowed to add to or take anything away from your image. The winning photo was acomplished with a single photo with the shutter opened only once.

T


* This message has been edited by the author on 11/13/2002 6:55:27 PM.
11/13/2002 06:57:18 PM · #6
Chris, Are you clicking on either the photo or the title? This will take you to the challenge results. Click again on the photo or the title and you should be taken to a details page on the photo. Scroll down the page and you will see details on the shot including comments made by the photographer and those who left comments during and after the challenge.

I don't believe layers are legal. Private mail Drew (Drewmedia) just to make sure. A winning photo was disqualified once it was found that they had accidently used an illegal edit. I've never heard of anyone until now wanting to use layers (but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened). Try doing a search in the forums on "layers" and see if it has been brought up before.

Oops, thanks Tim. Answered him while I was typing my response.


* This message has been edited by the author on 11/13/2002 6:55:44 PM.
11/13/2002 08:37:02 PM · #7
Layers are surely legal so long as what you do on the layers is legal, such as brightness/contrast etc?

11/13/2002 09:41:19 PM · #8
Originally posted by Jak:
Layers are surely legal so long as what you do on the layers is legal, such as brightness/contrast etc?


Adjustment Layers are legal. Layers containing pixels or mask information are not.
11/13/2002 09:44:47 PM · #9
Originally posted by timj351:
Layers are definitely not allowed as you would need to take more then one photo to accomplish it or by adding some other element that was not in the original photo. You are only allowed to take 1 photo and you are not allowed to add to or take anything away from your image. The winning photo was acomplished with a single photo with the shutter opened only once.

T


The stickiest argument would be about something similar to John Setzler's current Portrait examples -- duplicating the layer, applying legal modifications, and then blending it back into the original. But I still think that's NOT legal under the old OR the new rules.
11/13/2002 10:33:32 PM · #10
Thanks everyone for the fast replies! GeneralE's last post really clears it up... If it's not legal to "blend" a legally modified layer (of original photo layer) back into the original layer, then there is really no point in using layers. Instead of using an "adjustment layer" you would just make the adjust to the original instead.

I'm fairly new to PhotoShop, etc., so if I didn't describe something perfectly you know why. :) But I love this website! I've submitted my first photo the the latest challenge, Macro, and hope I finish at 50% :) I'll feel pretty good considering the GREAT pictures I've seen. Great website, keep up the good work!
11/13/2002 10:45:41 PM · #11
anytime I leave my shutter open for that long I get tons of noise... how did you take such a clear photo over such a long exposure? thanks!
11/13/2002 11:07:47 PM · #12
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
...there is really no point in using layers. Instead of using an "adjustment layer" you would just make the adjust to the original instead.

The (huge) advantage of using adjustment layers is that:

1) The adjustmnts are non-destructive and modifiable -- you can turn the effect on-and off and readjust the curves/levels as needed

2) You can add effects -- my upcoming submission uses two tone curves; after applying the first curve, I wanted to tweak it a little, so I added a second one
11/13/2002 11:21:53 PM · #13
Here's a couple of examples of "extreme effects" using multiple adjustment (Curves) layers. These are DPC-legal modifications.

This early entry started out like this (straight from the camera). It also makes "extreme" use of the Unsharp Mask filter.
The next week, I entered this "straight" version, but later created not one but two alternate versions for other purposes (prints or cards).

* This message has been edited by the author on 11/13/2002 11:21:40 PM.
11/14/2002 12:01:15 AM · #14
OK, now even I'm lost here. We have one moderator saying layers are illegal and another using multiple layers in his submissions. I'm also wondering about UNSHARP. The rules specifically mention despeckle and sharp only. I worked under the understanding that if it wasn't mentioned it wasn't legal. HEY DREW OR LANGDON! We need a ruling here.


* This message has been edited by the author on 11/14/2002 12:06:30 AM.
11/14/2002 12:13:12 AM · #15
The General was very clear, I thought: Adjustment layers are OK, masking and similar layers are not. He also outlined the primary purpose of using layers even with non-blended legal modifications -- because you can play with how one layer works with or without another, while still retaining the original layer. And, yes, you can lay one legal Adjustment layer over another to see what effect you can create.
11/14/2002 12:56:04 AM · #16
Tim was equally clear, according to him layers are not OK. When two moderators have two different opinions on the rules I would feel more comfortable having the decision come from the Admins.


* This message has been edited by the author on 11/14/2002 12:54:18 AM.
11/14/2002 01:10:08 AM · #17
Tim was clear on using layers to add or subtract items from the imnage. That is NOT an Adjustment layer.

I cannot conceive of making a change to an image -- especially the standard legal modifications, such as levels, brightness/contrast, etc -- without using Adjustment Layers. To do otherwise is simply inefficient.

I welcome Drew and Langdon's voices from on high on this matter.



* This message has been edited by the author on 11/14/2002 1:08:15 AM.
11/14/2002 01:27:32 AM · #18
I do believe these issues have been previously addressed -- you might try going to the main Forums page and running a search for "layers" or "sharpening."

The rules as re-written for DPC2 will be clearer. The current rules have been frequently clarified but not re-written.
For example, the actual rules specifically mention the only Levels adjustment whereas I always use Curves (that was deemed OK).
All four filters under the Sharpen Menu in Photoshop are legal, but EVERYONE (including Adobe) says to only use the Unsharp Mask filter.
11/14/2002 03:55:46 AM · #19
Originally posted by timj351:
Layers are definitely not allowed as you would need to take more then one photo to accomplish it or by adding some other element that was not in the original photo. You are only allowed to take 1 photo and you are not allowed to add to or take anything away from your image. The winning photo was acomplished with a single photo with the shutter opened only once.
T


A multi-exposure photo is considered to be 1 photo?
Not that I have found use for it for myself yet, but the 602 can do a limitless multi-exposure you see. I have a feeling that the ghost shot could be done that way too. But would that be legal? It is a form of in-camera layers and can be done on a 35mm too.
The rules themselves don't say that the shutter may only be opened once.



* This message has been edited by the author on 11/14/2002 3:54:30 AM.
11/14/2002 05:21:43 AM · #20
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by timj351:
[i]Layers are definitely not allowed as you would need to take more then one photo to accomplish it or by adding some other element that was not in the original photo. You are only allowed to take 1 photo and you are not allowed to add to or take anything away from your image. The winning photo was acomplished with a single photo with the shutter opened only once.
T


A multi-exposure photo is considered to be 1 photo?
Not that I have found use for it for myself yet, but the 602 can do a limitless multi-exposure you see. I have a feeling that the ghost shot could be done that way too. But would that be legal? It is a form of in-camera layers and can be done on a 35mm too.
The rules themselves don't say that the shutter may only be opened once.

[/i]


I was under the impression that anything that can be achieved "in camera" is legal.. There have been posts recently where people have used in-camera post processing filters and the photos, whilst requested for DQ have been allowed to stand... I would like to see multi-exposures allowed, as long as they are achieved on the camera and not in photoshop...

On a side not, becuase you are effectively blended two pictures with multi-exposure, does the camera save the EXIF of the first or the second shot??
11/14/2002 06:30:00 AM · #21
It´s important to have very clear rules because new cameras come with new functions. Olympus C-730UZ can make two exposures and put them into the same picture. So everything is done in the camera. Is it legal?
I think there´s gonna be problems in the future.
11/14/2002 10:31:17 AM · #22

For those of us who use operating systems that adobe deems unworth of having a version of photoshop, exactly what are those four filters?

Originally posted by GeneralE:
I do believe these issues have been previously addressed -- you might try going to the main Forums page and running a search for "layers" or "sharpening."

The rules as re-written for DPC2 will be clearer. The current rules have been frequently clarified but not re-written.
For example, the actual rules specifically mention the only Levels adjustment whereas I always use Curves (that was deemed OK).
All four filters under the Sharpen Menu in Photoshop are legal, but EVERYONE (including Adobe) says to only use the Unsharp Mask filter.


11/14/2002 10:46:36 AM · #23
Originally posted by gradbert:

For those of us who use operating systems that adobe deems unworth of having a version of photoshop, exactly what are those four filters?

Sharpen
Sharpen Edges
Sharpen More
Unsharp Mask...
is how they are listed in PS v5; I think it's the same for other versons. Only the last offers configurable settings...

* This message has been edited by the author on 11/14/2002 10:44:13 AM.
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