revealing current challenge entries

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

09/13/2005 12:33:51 AM · #1

continuing a discussion from another, now defunct, thread.

Originally posted by kyebosh:

so technically it's legal if you post your entry? I mean except that people will yell at you for doing so.

TECHNICALLY, yes, it's legal. however, it's always been an understood courtesy that you don't reveal your entry publicly. taking away the anonymity removes part of the fun of the game (and it IS just a game, people).

when the SC edits posts or warns people not to post current entries, it's done as a courtesy for other users who want to be surprised, etc., not technically because there's been a rule violation.

however, as many threads have pointed out before, sometimes anonymity is not all it's cracked up to be.

Telehubbie

Canon EOS-40D

09/13/2005 12:37:28 AM · #2

You forgot the smiles and happy faces... here ya go :-)

kyebosh

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 80-200 f/2.8L

09/13/2005 12:37:33 AM · #3

ygpm

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

09/13/2005 12:47:31 AM · #4

Call the cops.......... folks is playing fast and loose with da rules.

Sonifo

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

09/13/2005 12:52:35 AM · #5

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Call the cops.......... folks is playing fast and loose with da rules.

kyebosh

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 80-200 f/2.8L

09/13/2005 09:25:54 AM · #6

I have not yet recieved a reply to my pm. I'm wondering if action is being taken on the matter?

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

09/13/2005 10:27:47 AM · #7

i have sent you a pm in response, since that seemed appropriate. i've not said anything that shouldn't be revealed publicly, though, so feel free to post my reply and any other comments here.

incidentally, you didn't get a reply last night because i went to bed. :)

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

09/13/2005 10:34:18 AM · #8

you sleep???? 8)

Canon PowerShot Pro 90 IS

09/13/2005 10:38:40 AM · #9

Originally posted by karmat:

you sleep???? 8)

mostly just while voting. :P

coolhar

09/13/2005 12:02:40 PM · #10

Originally posted by muckpond:

continuing a discussion from another, now defunct, thread.

Originally posted by kyebosh:

so technically it's legal if you post your entry? I mean except that people will yell at you for doing so.

TECHNICALLY, yes, it's legal. however, it's always been an understood courtesy that you don't reveal your entry publicly. taking away the anonymity removes part of the fun of the game (and it IS just a game, people).

when the SC edits posts or warns people not to post current entries, it's done as a courtesy for other users who want to be surprised, etc., not technically because there's been a rule violation.

however, as many threads have pointed out before, sometimes anonymity is not all it's cracked up to be.

I think I must have missed that defunct thread. Could you please explain what you mean, especially in the last sentence.

Maybe it's time to update the rules to emphasize the importance of anonymity.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

09/13/2005 12:07:38 PM · #11

Originally posted by coolhar:

Originally posted by muckpond:
...sometimes anonymity is not all it's cracked up to be.

I think I must have missed that defunct thread. Could you please explain what you mean...

Some photographers may be recognized by their style, location or models. True anonymity probably isn't possible for that reason.

Skip

Canon EOS-1D X

Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM

09/13/2005 12:12:11 PM · #12

Originally posted by coolhar:

Maybe it's time to update the rules to emphasize the importance of anonymity.

forget it, harv, it just ain't gonna happen. no way to enforce it. no way to tell people they can't share their images in other places. no way to police it. no way to stop it. the internet's just too big. some people, like you, believe in it and abide by it, some though, don't see anything wrong with not waiting until after the voting ends to share. it's just the way it is...

kyebosh

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 80-200 f/2.8L

09/13/2005 12:37:05 PM · #13

Originally posted by skiprow:

Originally posted by coolhar:
Maybe it's time to update the rules to emphasize the importance of anonymity.

forget it, harv, it just ain't gonna happen. no way to enforce it. no way to tell people they can't share their images in other places. no way to police it. no way to stop it. the internet's just too big. some people, like you, believe in it and abide by it, some though, don't see anything wrong with not waiting until after the voting ends to share. it's just the way it is...

it's completely possible within the confines of THIS website. All you have to enforce here is the forum posts. It's really as simple as that. Controlling outside websites is quite impossible and not realistic in any way.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

09/13/2005 12:40:04 PM · #14

Originally posted by kyebosh:

it's completely possible within the confines of THIS website.

Not really. Heida, Librodo, Zoomdak, Graphicfunk, and probably a dozen others are often recognizable without posting to forums or other websites.

glad2badad

DJI Mavic Air 2

Sears 55mm f/1.4 M42

09/13/2005 12:49:10 PM · #15

I think it's one thing (I agree on this) when it's a style you're talking about, but if a challenge entry is posted in a forum while the challenge is active (even just before voting starts), then that's something else entirely.

Skip

Canon EOS-1D X

Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM

09/13/2005 12:53:23 PM · #16

there's a HUGE difference between 'the confines of this website' and the rest of the world. this place is fairly self-policing in that regard. the problem, though, is the rest of the world. this goes beyond asking one or two people what they think of this or that. it gets into posting images into PAD sites, blogs, and anywhere else people like to share their images with the world...

...and i've been told by more than one person that it's just not realistic to ask someone to wait a week or so before sharing their work outside the confines of this site...

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S21, S21+, S21 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

09/13/2005 12:55:57 PM · #17

Originally posted by kyebosh:

Originally posted by skiprow:

Originally posted by coolhar:
Maybe it's time to update the rules to emphasize the importance of anonymity.

forget it, harv, it just ain't gonna happen. no way to enforce it. no way to tell people they can't share their images in other places. no way to police it. no way to stop it. the internet's just too big. some people, like you, believe in it and abide by it, some though, don't see anything wrong with not waiting until after the voting ends to share. it's just the way it is...

it's completely possible within the confines of THIS website. All you have to enforce here is the forum posts. It's really as simple as that. Controlling outside websites is quite impossible and not realistic in any way.

There's a HUGE gray area there, though. It can't realistically be covered "objectively".

For example, member "X" begins experimenting with a completely new technique and shares his/her experiments with the community off-and-on for months. Along comes a challenge that this new approach fits to a "T", so member "X" submits a brand-new image using this unusual technique. Is anonymity breached? Would our members stop sharing the experiments out of fear of doing so?

For another example, member "Y" does easily half his/her shooting using a certain child as a subject. S/he shares these images with the community. Any challenge entry using this model can be "identified" by those who reads the forums regularly. Are we to disallow entries using identifiable models?

A third example: member "Z" shoots landscapes in his/her backyard. Over time the location becomes recognizable to the part of the community that frequents the forums. Does use of this location automatically DQ a challenge entry based on anonymity issues? How would you feel about that if, say, the member were wheelchair-bound and limited to this small area for shooting?

Is there a valid distinction to be made between breach of anonymity through familiarity and breach of anonymity that comes from revealing the actual challenge photo during (or just prior to) the voting stage? And if so, how far does the breach extend? Do similar-but-not-identical images count? If so, how similar?

Can you imagine SC having to judge, on an individual basis, the validity of certain entries based on prior postings of "similar" images? The resultant uproar on these judgment calls would be insane, I think.

And let's not even try to contemplate what would happen if we started saying that challenge entries which were deemed "too recognizable" based on previous challenge entries by that photographer were not acceptable and would be DQ'd. As an extreme example, it would mean that if YOU, current-reader-of-this-post, were to travel to Cape Cod and remake one of my challenge entries precisely, this would be a valid entry: but if I were to go back to the same location and do a similar-but-different shot, it would NOT be...

I think SC is quite correct in asserting that this sort of stuff should be left up to the voters. Any attempt to legislate it would lead us into a quagmire of complaints of favoritism or arbitrary judgments...

Robt.

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS

09/13/2005 12:58:01 PM · #18

Originally posted by bear_music:

Any attempt to legislate it would lead us into a quagmire of complaints of favoritism or arbitrary judgments...

Robt.

You mean, like now? ;)

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S21, S21+, S21 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

09/13/2005 12:59:38 PM · #19

Originally posted by laurielblack:

Originally posted by bear_music:
Any attempt to legislate it would lead us into a quagmire of complaints of favoritism or arbitrary judgments...

Robt.

You mean, like now? ;)

Hell, this is NOTHING compared to the uproar that would arise if SC started actually DQing entries for reasons of "breached anonymity"... jejeje�

Robt.

09/13/2005 01:05:16 PM · #20

Originally posted by bear_music:

Hell, this is NOTHING compared to the uproar that would arise if SC started actually DQing entries for reasons of "breached anonymity"

doing all that work would cut into the time we spend DQing stuff just 'cause we want to.

beckettboots

09/13/2005 01:15:52 PM · #21

My opinion on maintaining the blinded entries during the challenge period is this:

It's not so much that I don't know who took some of the photos, even as a casual member I've come to recognize a great many photographs during challenges.

Commenting in the forums means that some people are suddenly at an advantage or disadvantage because they are giving more information than the other people who are entered in the challenge.

The person doesn't matter so much as the information they give.

Someone might have posted a photo of a tree in water for the branch challenge and then a story in the forums about how the photo was taken (and perhaps it included a great story that make the photo more meaningful such as taking it after a hard day of rescuing people from the Katrina aftermath) so people might vote it more favorably.

The point is that for the great majority of folks evaluate photos based on what they see when they click to vote. They see a photo and a title. To have more information than that for only some of the photos makes the voting skewed (I can see it going both ways, actually, being either favorable or unfavorable for the particular entry).

If we want to allow folks to "comment" on their photo for the challenge, that is, show the "Photographer's Comments" section, that's another discussion. I don't think that would benefit the challenge as we have many users who do not use English as their first language and would perhaps be at a disadvantage to "sell" their photo in that section.

I don't think that anything else needs to be done than the current admonishment to those who do reveal their current entries.

glad2badad

DJI Mavic Air 2

Sears 55mm f/1.4 M42

09/13/2005 01:28:28 PM · #22

I wait before showing my image anywhere else, only because I wouldn't want to spoil my anonymity. That's just me tho...

Originally posted by skiprow:

...and i've been told by more than one person that it's just not realistic to ask someone to wait a week or so before sharing their work outside the confines of this site...