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09/12/2005 08:30:10 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by hyperfocal:
Originally posted by bear_music:
The "copyright violation" seems to me to be a non-issue, since "fair use" would allow posting of others' images for edeucational purposes, and it happens all the time in here.
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IMHO, the fact that it happens here all the time is the biggest down fall of the DPC. Just because it is done often or that it is technically legal doesn't make it right. Your "fair use" policy is anything but to the original artist. It stealing, it is disrespect and its just not right to use another photgrapher's work without permission. |
You are incorrect -- posting an image here for an educational discussion is perfectly legal under US Copyright law, and does not diminish the commercial value of the item in any way -- if anything, it should eventually benefit the artist, under the maxim of "any publicity is good publicity, as long as they spell your name right."
You think film-makers or authors would refuse to allow reviews? (I know, some with a known bomb DO withhold pre-release reviews, but that's not the same thing.)
If someone attemps to profit off another's image or commit fraud it would be a problem, but just posting it for commentary is not. |
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09/12/2005 09:21:22 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
You are incorrect -- posting an image here for an educational discussion is perfectly legal under US Copyright law, and does not diminish the commercial value of the item in any way -- if anything, it should eventually benefit the artist, under the maxim of "any publicity is good publicity, as long as they spell your name right."
You think film-makers or authors would refuse to allow reviews? (I know, some with a known bomb DO withhold pre-release reviews, but that's not the same thing.)
If someone attemps to profit off another's image or commit fraud it would be a problem, but just posting it for commentary is not. |
Incorrect? What do you mean? There is no correct or incorrect to it but just a matter of opinion. I never said any copyright laws were being broken, but intellectual property is being inappropriately used and in a word stolen.
You comparison to film & authors is nonsense in that the whole film or written work is never given/shown to the public, but only parts. The critics who are given the works are wined & dined and given gifts to help insure positive reviews. This is not a logical comparison to the topic at hand.
And who cares if there has not been any commercial gain by the theft/use, which definitely should not be the criteria for theft. If that were appropriate then you would have every non-profit group ripping off artists all the time. Also, don’t you think that it is up to the artist if they want publicity or not? Believe it or not you can trample over someone’s rights without affecting their bottom line. J.D. Salinger is a perfect example.
The artist also loses control over the quality of the representation of the image. Ansel Adams died years before the proliferation of electronic media so as such he has no control over how his images appear. For someone who was so particular about the appearance of his images surely he would be horrified with this practice. Weston burned his negatives before he died to insure that they would not be printed differently than his vision.
So even if the images are being used for a supposed educational use, we should err on the side of the rights of the artist.
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09/12/2005 09:24:13 PM · #153 |
Originally posted by rktdesign:
I must say something here...
I find this thread most distressing...as though I have been transported back in time to watch the Salem witch trials actually. I truly believe Ron meant no ill will, he was trying to prove a point...it was "proven", the experiment was amazingly successful, with this very thread being the icing on the cake so to speak, or at least a hot knife that has struck a raw nerve. I have conversed with Ron off and on over the months an he is not the evil monster so many here at the moment seem to think he is...did everyone actually READ and then comprehend the original post? Ron is extremely articulate, a masterful writer and a fine photographer at that...I have seen his other non DPC work and can vouch for what I say here.
I don't understand all these personal attacks...aren't those a violation of the TOS?
I feel as though Ron is being sentenced publically before this trial is over by both SC and members. He has taken responsibility for his actions and knows there will be a "price to pay"...so why must he be beaten into a bloody pulp? Yes...I know he technically started it...but please, Ron does not deserve this, no one really does.
JMHO |
I'm sorry, but i personally don't find that doing something offensive to many voters can be excused simply by declaring "oh i've done this, it wasn't MEANT to offend" and that's that. I'm not with the eye-for-an-eye lynch mob either, i just don't think it should be passed off as something and nothing, and whether he's a "masterful writer and fine photographer" changes nothing about what he did.
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09/12/2005 09:35:30 PM · #154 |
Originally posted by hyperfocal:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
You are incorrect -- posting an image here for an educational discussion is perfectly legal under US Copyright law, and does not diminish the commercial value of the item in any way -- if anything, it should eventually benefit the artist, under the maxim of "any publicity is good publicity, as long as they spell your name right."
You think film-makers or authors would refuse to allow reviews? (I know, some with a known bomb DO withhold pre-release reviews, but that's not the same thing.)
If someone attemps to profit off another's image or commit fraud it would be a problem, but just posting it for commentary is not. |
Incorrect? What do you mean? There is no correct or incorrect to it but just a matter of opinion. I never said any copyright laws were being broken, but intellectual property is being inappropriately used and in a word stolen. |
Stolen is a legal term which involves a law being broken. Since you admit that no laws are being broken, please refrain from characterizing those who avail themselves of this legal activity as criminals. Thank you. |
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09/12/2005 10:59:46 PM · #155 |
I hope that people realize that this experiment had a purpose. It has been discussed elsewhere and the purpose was found to be interesting to many.
The balance that I had been hoping the SC would bring was bringing education of DPC members up so as to avoid this sort of thing in the future.
It appears as though this is not all that uncommon a thought and even not that uncommon a practice.
Would it therefore be appropriate to place something along the lines of a Tutorial up regarding How Not to Submit? or Submitting for the Purpose of comparing others' works? Submitting the Works of Masters - or Not? or something along these lines?
By placing a tutorial and placing links to it in areas that refer to DQ and that part of the TOS which every user must see when submitting a picture, perhaps this entire issue could be avoided in the future. Suspending the user is not out of the question, but I feel the goal here is to use it to set a precedent.
Although I did not know of his other violations, and feel that he was aware that a suspension might be in order, I do not feel that right away there is enough information on this website to DISCOURAGE what he was trying to do. Rather, there is recent information to indicate that this was done by SC. There is no mention of the fact that such experiments must go through the SC and this is something that may not have occurred to someone doing it as a casual experiment.
This is an important role of the SC. This is caring for the website's needs.
As is handing out a suspension to Ron for his wanton violation. I think we are all pretty OK about this.
They do always say though - if you want to spank a child, make sure you are doing it without anger. Only then will your purpose be achieved. (this is metaphorical - please no comments on spanking children)
Edit: Just a note to qualify my remarks to earlier posts by muckpond and perhaps some others that I missed in not passing back over the first 4 pages of this rant. Thoughtful comments have been coming from GeneralE, mk, hphotosmart and some others. It certainly seems that after the initial burst of anger, most recent posts seem to be significantly more balanced. Posts like "I'm disgusted" also fall into the category of rant imho.
Message edited by author 2005-09-12 23:05:03. |
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09/13/2005 05:47:19 AM · #156 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Stolen is a legal term which involves a law being broken. Since you admit that no laws are being broken, please refrain from characterizing those who avail themselves of this legal activity as criminals. Thank you. |
Fine they are not participating in an illegal activity but just an immoral one. It’s really sad when someone is championing the right to exploit someone else’s work. |
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09/13/2005 06:08:25 AM · #157 |
Originally posted by hyperfocal:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Stolen is a legal term which involves a law being broken. Since you admit that no laws are being broken, please refrain from characterizing those who avail themselves of this legal activity as criminals. Thank you. |
Fine they are not participating in an illegal activity but just an immoral one. It’s really sad when someone is championing the right to exploit someone else’s work. |
Could be wrong but I would have thought it illegal to misrepresent someone else's artwork as your own ? |
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09/13/2005 07:15:49 AM · #158 |
Ron the point you were trying to make by entering this 'art' photo and revealing your purpose the way you did, is exactly the point why I recently decided NOT to enter any more challenges. Clapping my hands for your braveness Sir.
Most responses in this thread are exactly as I thought they would be. Even now most of them are not getting your point at all.
In the short time I participated in the challenges and reading the threads in the forums, I found that most of the voters didn't even bother to imagine what people were trying to tell, but merely were forcing their own way of looking at things on them and were trying to change the submitted photos into theirs. I found a lot of arrogance, narrow minds, agressiveness and a poor quality of empathy in what was said in a lot of 'current challenge' threads. And with each new challenge, the same arguments repeated themselves.
These challenges are deadly races for all who are at least trying to be creative and having a view of their own. Those skills are not tolerated by the mass. As I said before in some other thread: most of the highly rated/winning photos are technically very good/superb photos, but that's all they are. Only very few made me say WOW.
And if you get slapped for speaking up and giving them a cookie of their own, then you should consider if this is the place you really want to belong to.
You got a 10 in my book Ron.
Titia
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09/13/2005 07:40:45 AM · #159 |
There were two monk standing on the bridge.
One said, "I wish I were fish. They look so happy".
The other one replies," How do you know they are happy? You are not them!".
The first one replied, "Right. But how do you know that I dont know if they were happy ... you are not me!"
Moral of story : Opinion is just Opinion ...mine or yours.Period.
{Sorry for my grammer and spellings. English is not my native language}
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09/13/2005 07:48:51 AM · #160 |
Originally posted by e301:
However, from recent events, I don't expect the site as a whole to accept that as a possibility - there's a an arrogance of opinion here that ill becomes the place these days.
e |
well said, my thoughts exactly |
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09/13/2005 08:00:05 AM · #161 |
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by e301:
However, from recent events, I don't expect the site as a whole to accept that as a possibility - there's a an arrogance of opinion here that ill becomes the place these days.
e |
well said, my thoughts exactly |
Josh, is that why you have no camera down at the moment? Your previous shots are brilliant and it is a great shame if you are not taking part because of what a few people are saying.
If you look at who is taking part in this site compared with the number that are posting in threads, you can see that the vast majority of people are just here to take photos and enjoy the competition along with the comments.
OK I lilke to talk so I use the threads but really
they are a minor part of the site and only those who enjoy spouting on on them - and people should just ignore them ( and me!) and get on with the important bits.
Amateurs like me learn so much from good photographers and it would be a great shame to lose any of the" master class" .
P
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09/13/2005 08:21:55 AM · #162 |
Originally posted by Titia:
You got a 10 in my book Ron.
Titia |
He gets a 10 in my book too. What scale are you using? In my book he got a 10/100!
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09/13/2005 08:39:16 AM · #163 |
Originally posted by Titia:
Most responses in this thread are exactly as I thought they would be. Even now most of them are not getting your point at all.
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On the contrary, i think most of them are getting the point exactly, and are taking offense at having their opinion labelled as "non-valid" as a result of an arrogant i'm-above-the-rules attempt to run a so-called brave experiment.
Originally posted by Titia:
These challenges are deadly races for all who are at least trying to be creative and having a view of their own. Those skills are not tolerated by the mass.
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Of course they're tolerated, that's why they get votes over 1 at all. If an image scores in a mediocre way, then the average voter thought it was mediocre - who are you or Ron or any of us to judge their opinion because it doesn't coincide with our own? Again, this is nothing but arrogance imo.
Originally posted by Titia:
And if you get slapped for speaking up and giving them a cookie of their own, then you should consider if this is the place you really want to belong to.
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DPC is not a democracy. This is stated often. It is not the right of any of us here to give anyone else "a cookie of their own". This man has broken the rules, that is not harmless teenage rebellion. It's an (again) arrogant attempt to upset the workings of an established community by segregating voters into two groups - those who can judge "out of the box" things as intrinsically good, and those who actually care about the aesthetic values of an image and little else - and bullying the latter.
This sort of thing appears on the forums all the time, and runs its course and dies down again. However when someone takes the rules into their own hands to push their agenda further, that cannot be tolerated. His actions are in principle harming the community, it is illogical to applaud him as a symbolic rebel or a liberator.
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09/13/2005 08:49:07 AM · #164 |
A few ramblings for Ron....
So a little known work by a known artist gets a 5.9. Though not a bad score maybe this is the reason his work was litte known.
You wanted to be a protagonist - mission accomplished!
Maybe your biggest mistake (or lack of consideration) was playing (experimenting) with people that take their work and this site serious. Something that wasn't your place to do.
Some people give eventual blue ribbon winner photos low scores hence their disatisfaction is made known. Many others give the eventual winner a high score and thier satisfaction is made known. This is a good thing.
I wonder if Mr. Adams was so pompous as to think all of his work would 'blue ribbon' due to his name alone? I imagine not. So why would you imagine Mr. Adams little known work would blue ribbon because you knew his name?.
Unfortunately, his work still had to pass the big test of appealing to the majority. Apparently, something that didn't happen and something that proved to you what? That many posters prefer other work to Mr. Adams little known photo? Or that there are a bunch of ignorant hillbillies on this site?
For myself, I interpret the results of your unfortunate experiment to mean (something I already knew) there are great talents on this site. Talents that appeal to me and many others. This also is a good thing.
BTW if your point wasn't well interpreted then your point wasn't well made.
P.S. What score would you have placed on his little known photo? Would you have given your submitted photo the top spot?
Message edited by author 2005-09-13 08:50:29. |
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09/13/2005 09:05:54 AM · #165 |
Originally posted by Titia:
You got a 10 in my book Ron.
Titia |
and a zero in mine.
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09/13/2005 09:37:52 AM · #166 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
I hope that people realize that this experiment had a purpose. It has been discussed elsewhere and the purpose was found to be interesting to many. |
I'm going to start personally placing parking tickets on cars at expired meters. The experiment will have a purpose -- and I expect it will be found "interesting" by many ...
Originally posted by keegbow:
Originally posted by hyperfocal:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Stolen is a legal term which involves a law being broken. Since you admit that no laws are being broken, please refrain from characterizing those who avail themselves of this legal activity as criminals. Thank you. |
Fine they are not participating in an illegal activity but just an immoral one. It’s really sad when someone is championing the right to exploit someone else’s work. |
Could be wrong but I would have thought it illegal to misrepresent someone else's artwork as your own ? |
Exactly -- the misrepresentation is the "problem" here. Merely posting someone else's photo (e.g. in a forum) for the purpose of discussing it is not illegal (or morally wrong, by me); attempting to claim the work as your own is.
Message edited by author 2005-09-13 09:39:08. |
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09/13/2005 09:58:10 AM · #167 |
you know what I don't get? Is the people always complaining on this site about the quality of comments, suggesting that the voters aren't up to the task. Are we all so full of ourselves that we think we always take the perfect shot? From the two years that I've been lurking and posting here, I don't think the voters have ever really failed to nominate the top three. IMO, the voting system works. From the shots that I've submitted and the comments I've received, I believe the comment system also works. Its what you choose to do with those comments is where the REAL value lies. Posting on the boards whining that people don't get it isn't helping you grow as a photographer. Sometimes I grow tired of people complaining about comments, and how people aren't interpretting their pictures because they "can't think outside of the box". Its not the voters or the commentators that are the problem. Its YOUR objective to bring those people inside your world, so they can understand it. If you've failed to do that, its not the end of the world, not ALL pictures will please EVERYBODY! Take from it that you need to work a different angle next time, or perhaps work on a better title to help describe your train of thought, but don't ever let it impede your creativity or desire to capture photos, and don't let it affect your perception that the commentators were just plain wrong.
I think what the members here need to do is gain a thicker skin in order to handle the comments and criticism that are passed our way. Comments are invaluable when they do have content, and complaining about it in the forums is only discouraging people from taking the time to share with you their thoughts on your picture. Its YOUR perogative whether you ignore or evaluate these comments. Taking them personally isn't going to further your ability as a photographer, unless you take them to heart in an attempt to honestly improve and hone your skill as a photographer. If you can't take the comments, perhaps submitting shots to challenges isn't for you. If you only want positive comments, perhaps you should call your mom and show her your photos.
The most important aspect to photography, at least to myself, is taking pictures that are pleasing to myself. Sharing with others is equally gratifying, but gaining the realization that you need to please yourself will allow you to handle the fact that not all of your shots are going to please everybody. One of the great things about this site is that we have the luxury of being among some of the undiscovered masters of our day, and being able to pick their brains and absorb their style from their shared images is a far greater education than you can purchase at any school.
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09/13/2005 10:12:43 AM · #168 |
This is a fun thread. Don't you guys ever mess with people just for fun? GeneralE's parking ticket idea sounds like fun...and the original poster even thought he had a noble purpose for doing so!
If this act of terrorizing the dpc communities with satanic deceit is the most that any of you will be offended this week, count yourself blessed! |
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09/13/2005 10:16:14 AM · #169 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by eschelar:
I hope that people realize that this experiment had a purpose. It has been discussed elsewhere and the purpose was found to be interesting to many. |
I'm going to start personally placing parking tickets on cars at expired meters. The experiment will have a purpose -- and I expect it will be found "interesting" by many ... |
If you make the ticket look realistic and provide a return address at a PO Box you own, it could be profitable too.......
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09/13/2005 10:24:31 AM · #170 |
| . . .if you make more than the court costs are. :) |
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09/13/2005 10:42:30 AM · #171 |
you'd only have court costs IF you get caught.
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09/13/2005 10:56:51 AM · #172 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by e301:
However, from recent events, I don't expect the site as a whole to accept that as a possibility - there's a an arrogance of opinion here that ill becomes the place these days.
e |
well said, my thoughts exactly |
Josh, is that why you have no camera down at the moment? Your previous shots are brilliant and it is a great shame if you are not taking part because of what a few people are saying.
If you look at who is taking part in this site compared with the number that are posting in threads, you can see that the vast majority of people are just here to take photos and enjoy the competition along with the comments.
OK I lilke to talk so I use the threads but really
they are a minor part of the site and only those who enjoy spouting on on them - and people should just ignore them ( and me!) and get on with the important bits.
Amateurs like me learn so much from good photographers and it would be a great shame to lose any of the" master class" .
P |
I don't have anything against dpchallenge, it's a great site. The people that I kind of "came up with" here seem to have all gone their own ways in recent months for whatever reason. i really enjoyed that dpchallenge. that was real community. nowadays it's completely different, in a way that doesn't really meet my needs, so I don't have a ton of reasons to be involved anymore. I come here now to get inspiration during times of creative "funks".
As for the forums, I think even the little role they play has become too much. It seems as if there has been a growing divisiveness in all areas of the forums and they seem to just get used nowadays to play the let's see who's the smartest or best or loudest game. There used to be a general sense of community based on photography and photography improvement that has seriously taken a back seat to what seems to always be post filled with opinioniative people wrestling for a higher spot on the totem pole. What Ed said of the collective arrogance that seems to come out from this site is a turn off to me. Even though it's a small part of the site, it's always on the front page staring right at visitors. |
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09/13/2005 11:54:22 AM · #173 |
Originally posted by riot:
Originally posted by Titia:
Most responses in this thread are exactly as I thought they would be. Even now most of them are not getting your point at all.
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On the contrary, i think most of them are getting the point exactly, and are taking offense at having their opinion labelled as "non-valid" as a result of an arrogant i'm-above-the-rules attempt to run a so-called brave experiment.
Can't see where Ron labelled opinions as "non-valid" and I believe his only goal was to put some things into perspective
Originally posted by Titia:
These challenges are deadly races for all who are at least trying to be creative and having a view of their own. Those skills are not tolerated by the mass.
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Of course they're tolerated, that's why they get votes over 1 at all. If an image scores in a mediocre way, then the average voter thought it was mediocre - who are you or Ron or any of us to judge their opinion because it doesn't coincide with our own? Again, this is nothing but arrogance imo.
It's not bothering me at all if 'their' opinions don't coincide with my own. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and nowhere ever I've claimed to be a better judge. This however is not about me. What really bothers me is that, though voters say this site is about learning and getting ones skills up higher by listening to all the advice that's given, all I read in the forums is that the lesser skilled photos are getting none or hardly any constructive comment at all!! Just pick any challenge and go to those who got lower votes and compare the amount of comments to those who got high(er) votes and see for yourself that even those few comments some people got are often not contructive and helpfull at all. Again, this is NOT about me at all.
Originally posted by Titia:
And if you get slapped for speaking up and giving them a cookie of their own, then you should consider if this is the place you really want to belong to.
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DPC is not a democracy. This is stated often. It is not the right of any of us here to give anyone else "a cookie of their own". This man has broken the rules, that is not harmless teenage rebellion. It's an (again) arrogant attempt to upset the workings of an established community by segregating voters into two groups - those who can judge "out of the box" things as intrinsically good, and those who actually care about the aesthetic values of an image and little else - and bullying the latter.
This sort of thing appears on the forums all the time, and runs its course and dies down again. However when someone takes the rules into their own hands to push their agenda further, that cannot be tolerated. His actions are in principle harming the community, it is illogical to applaud him as a symbolic rebel or a liberator. |
Maybe this was the only way to get through? And still most of the replyers are focussing just on that single point "he broke the rules" and are not sitting back reflecting 'WHY' he did that and "IF" somehow his goal was trying to get through to people, when obviously no other way is succeeding. There's nothing harmfull at all in trying to put things back into perspective.
I really second what achiral said:
Originally posted by achiral:
I don't have anything against dpchallenge, it's a great site. The people that I kind of "came up with" here seem to have all gone their own ways in recent months for whatever reason. i really enjoyed that dpchallenge. that was real community. nowadays it's completely different, in a way that doesn't really meet my needs, so I don't have a ton of reasons to be involved anymore. I come here now to get inspiration during times of creative "funks".
As for the forums, I think even the little role they play has become too much. It seems as if there has been a growing divisiveness in all areas of the forums and they seem to just get used nowadays to play the let's see who's the smartest or best or loudest game. There used to be a general sense of community based on photography and photography improvement that has seriously taken a back seat to what seems to always be post filled with opinioniative people wrestling for a higher spot on the totem pole. What Ed said of the collective arrogance that seems to come out from this site is a turn off to me. Even though it's a small part of the site, it's always on the front page staring right at visitors |
That's my reason too for not participating in challenges anymore.
Titia
editing: getting a quote right.
Message edited by author 2005-09-13 12:01:39.
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09/13/2005 12:09:09 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by Titia:
Originally posted by riot:
It's not bothering me at all if 'their' opinions don't coincide with my own. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and nowhere ever I've claimed to be a better judge. This however is not about me. What really bothers me is that, though voters say this site is about learning and getting ones skills up higher by listening to all the advice that's given, all I read in the forums is that the lesser skilled photos are getting none or hardly any constructive comment at all!! Just pick any challenge and go to those who got lower votes and compare the amount of comments to those who got high(er) votes and see for yourself that even those few comments some people got are often not contructive and helpfull at all. Again, this is NOT about me at all.
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Please don't insert your own text into quotes supposedly by me. I didn't write the above paragraph.
Originally posted by Titia:
Maybe this was the only way to get through? And still most of the replyers are focussing just on that single point "he broke the rules" and are not sitting back reflecting 'WHY' he did that and "IF" somehow his goal was trying to get through to people, when obviously no other way is succeeding. There's nothing harmfull at all in trying to put things back into perspective.
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Things aren't being put back into perspective though. I'm having to repeat myself here: people ARE understanding WHY he did it:Originally posted by RonBeam:
I felt this ruse a way of enlightening those who feel discouraged by negative comments as to the validity (actually non-validity) of some comments received during scoring of a challenge. |
and that's exactly WHAT they're taking offense to. There's something rather different between "putting things into perspective" and bullying a group of voters based on their comments and votes on an ansel image.
Also you seem to be taking the attitude that the way to "get through" is just to shout louder. People have heard his point, they don't like it. Breaking the rules and infringing a copyright is shouting too loud. This is the style of thinking of terrorists, not debaters.
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09/13/2005 12:11:15 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by riot:
This is the style of thinking of terrorists, not debaters. |
At least we're all keeping a proper perspective. |
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