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09/07/2005 08:52:32 PM · #76
Originally posted by louddog:

Originally posted by nsbca7:

Isn't that about the same reply you gave when the Abu Ghurayb story first came out. I think you used the words "a few bad apples" that time.


I don't remember what I said way back then, if anything??? Are you trying to change the subject?


I went back and checked, I never said anything close to that in that thread. (in case you care about your accuracy)
09/07/2005 08:53:09 PM · #77
Originally posted by nsbca7:

I guess it sounds easy for people in places like Ohio and NY to sit back and see this and say "Oh, how awful" and change the station, but for those of us who live along the Gulf Coast things all seem a little closer. We want to know what happened so that next time, and there will be a next time, it doesn't happen to us.

This might be out of context, and I'm not trying to add to the flames, but I'd appreciate if you didn't put me (as a New Yorker) into some bin of people you seem to think don't care about this tragedy. We've, as a city, had more than a taste of tragedy in recent history, and I'd argue very few of us think lightly of what has happened to the Gulf Coast.

Message edited by author 2005-09-07 20:54:06.
09/07/2005 10:31:22 PM · #78
Originally posted by BikeRacer:

This might be out of context, and I'm not trying to add to the flames, but I'd appreciate if you didn't put me (as a New Yorker) into some bin of people you seem to think don't care about this tragedy. We've, as a city, had more than a taste of tragedy in recent history, and I'd argue very few of us think lightly of what has happened to the Gulf Coast.


But most of you haven't a clue as to what it's like to have hurricanes coming up towards you 3 or 4 times a year and have to live with that as if it were everyday and few people in, yes NY, know what it is like to have to wait days for relief to arrive after such a disaster. How long did it take FEMA to get to the WTC in 2001? It wasn't days.

When Ivan hit our town last year it was three days before anyone brought in water or food. There was no way out of town and nothing was open. We had old people from a retirement home baking in a church/shelter because there was no A/C and no way for them to bathe. No one bothered to find a way of evacuating them until they started falling out on about the forth day.

To us it all seems like the priorities of who does what and how fast depends on the size of the electoral vote and rural areas like the ones we live in here just don't really matter.
09/07/2005 10:40:18 PM · #79
this thread is teetering on the brink of being moved to rant, but i'll leave it here for now.

IMHO, the stories of last week would not have been nearly as compelling without the visuals provided by the media. yeah, sometimes they go too far. but the single AP shot of the woman who was "buried" in a very temporary sheet-and-bricks grave with the phrase "here lies vera. god help us." painted on her is way more compelling than stupid talking heads on television.

visually experiencing the phenomenon (whether it's this, the holocaust, the tsunami, or whatever) makes it more visceral and more powerful and much less likely that it's going to fade from memory so soon. i think it's important for them to be there.

part of me thinks that if i had lost a loved one in a situation as horrific as this, i would want people around the country to know about it. but, i've never walked in those shoes so...who knows how i would feel?

still, as a bystander, the imagery is too powerful to ignore.
09/07/2005 11:24:05 PM · #80
Brian Williams from WNBC reports:

"An interesting dynamic is taking shape in this city, not altogether positive: after days of rampant lawlessness ... the city has now reached a near-saturation level of military and law enforcement. In the areas we visited, the red berets of the 82nd Airborne are visible on just about every block. National Guard soldiers are ubiquitous... And tempers are getting hot. While we were attempting to take pictures of the National Guard (a unit from Oklahoma) taking up positions outside a Brooks Brothers on the edge of the Quarter, the sergeant ordered us to the other side of the boulevard. The short version is: there won't be any pictures of this particular group of guard soldiers on our newscast tonight. Rules (or I suspect in this case an order on a whim) like those do not HELP the palpable feeling that this area is somehow separate from the United States.

"At that same fire scene, a police officer from out of town raised the muzzle of her weapon and aimed it at members of the media... obvious members of the media... armed only with notepads. Her actions (apparently because she thought reporters were encroaching on the scene) were over the top and she was told. There are automatic weapons and shotguns everywhere you look. It's a stance that perhaps would have been appropriate during the open lawlessness that has long since ended on most of these streets. Someone else points out on television as I post this: the fact that the National Guard now bars entry (by journalists) to the very places where people last week were barred from LEAVING (The Convention Center and Superdome) is a kind of perverse and perfectly backward postscript to this awful chapter in American history."
MSNBC

Message edited by author 2005-09-07 23:27:41.
09/07/2005 11:30:18 PM · #81
I believe the ban of media photographers is because most media outlets can't be trusted. Each media trying to out do the others ratings. You know they would show the bodies on TV not caring one ounce about the trauma it would put a family through that may see a love-one bloated, half decade, and dead while they still had hopes they were alive. That would be real tasteful wouldn't it? NOT!

While people are still looking to be reunited with love-ones and they don't know what there fate is I don't believe it should be shown on national news.

I believe the only way they could let photographers in would be to have an independent group that would be bound to withhold the pictures until all recovery efforts are over. And all families know the fate of there love-ones (if thats possible). Let the photographers that any pictures they want (no censoring), just don't publish the pictures until an appropriate time. If that makes since.

I do believe the bodies need to be photograph where they are found. It will help in any investigation that may take place to see when the person may have died and in which manor. This would be the only way to see if the delay in response caused more or less deaths.

Message edited by author 2005-09-07 23:33:53.
09/07/2005 11:31:44 PM · #82
Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Brian Williams from WNBC reports:

"An interesting dynamic is taking shape in this city, not altogether positive: after days of rampant lawlessness ... the city has now reached a near-saturation level of military and law enforcement. In the areas we visited, the red berets of the 82nd Airborne are visible on just about every block. National Guard soldiers are ubiquitous... And tempers are getting hot. While we were attempting to take pictures of the National Guard (a unit from Oklahoma) taking up positions outside a Brooks Brothers on the edge of the Quarter, the sergeant ordered us to the other side of the boulevard. The short version is: there won't be any pictures of this particular group of guard soldiers on our newscast tonight. Rules (or I suspect in this case an order on a whim) like those do not HELP the palpable feeling that this area is somehow separate from the United States.

"At that same fire scene, a police officer from out of town raised the muzzle of her weapon and aimed it at members of the media... obvious members of the media... armed only with notepads. Her actions (apparently because she thought reporters were encroaching on the scene) were over the top and she was told. There are automatic weapons and shotguns everywhere you look. It's a stance that perhaps would have been appropriate during the open lawlessness that has long since ended on most of these streets. Someone else points out on television as I post this: the fact that the National Guard now bars entry (by journalists) to the very places where people last week were barred from LEAVING (The Convention Center and Superdome) is a kind of perverse and perfectly backward postscript to this awful chapter in American history."
MSNBC


Originally posted by louddog:

Originally posted by nsbca7:

Some of them do have their own boats. But if you had one and wanted to get in now I doubt the authorities would let you.


You doubt????

Any proof or are you just guessing/assuming to prove your point?


09/07/2005 11:32:42 PM · #83
Originally posted by nsbca7:

But most of you haven't a clue as to what it's like to have hurricanes coming up towards you 3 or 4 times a year and have to live with that as if it were everyday and few people in, yes NY, know what it is like to have to wait days for relief to arrive after such a disaster. How long did it take FEMA to get to the WTC in 2001? It wasn't days.

When Ivan hit our town last year it was three days before anyone brought in water or food. There was no way out of town and nothing was open. We had old people from a retirement home baking in a church/shelter because there was no A/C and no way for them to bathe. No one bothered to find a way of evacuating them until they started falling out on about the forth day.

To us it all seems like the priorities of who does what and how fast depends on the size of the electoral vote and rural areas like the ones we live in here just don't really matter.

All of this is true. Your fight is not with me.
09/07/2005 11:35:03 PM · #84
Originally posted by SDW65:


I believe the only way they could let photographers in would be to have an independent group that would be bound to withhold the pictures until all recovery efforts are over. And all families know the fate of there love-ones (if thats possible). Let the photographers that any pictures they want (no censoring), just don't publish the pictures until an appropriate time. If that makes since.


No, it doesn't. Independant group? And who would appoint this independant group? FEMA? Many of these people will never be ID'd. It just will not happen. So wait till when?

Free Press. Stay strong.
09/07/2005 11:36:44 PM · #85
Originally posted by BikeRacer:

Originally posted by nsbca7:

But most of you haven't a clue as to what it's like to have hurricanes coming up towards you 3 or 4 times a year and have to live with that as if it were everyday and few people in, yes NY, know what it is like to have to wait days for relief to arrive after such a disaster. How long did it take FEMA to get to the WTC in 2001? It wasn't days.

When Ivan hit our town last year it was three days before anyone brought in water or food. There was no way out of town and nothing was open. We had old people from a retirement home baking in a church/shelter because there was no A/C and no way for them to bathe. No one bothered to find a way of evacuating them until they started falling out on about the forth day.

To us it all seems like the priorities of who does what and how fast depends on the size of the electoral vote and rural areas like the ones we live in here just don't really matter.

All of this is true. Your fight is not with me.


I didn't think it was.
09/07/2005 11:40:46 PM · #86
Originally posted by nsbca7:

Originally posted by SDW65:


I believe the only way they could let photographers in would be to have an independent group that would be bound to withhold the pictures until all recovery efforts are over. And all families know the fate of there love-ones (if thats possible). Let the photographers that any pictures they want (no censoring), just don't publish the pictures until an appropriate time. If that makes since.


No, it doesn't. Independant group? And who would appoint this independant group? FEMA? Many of these people will never be ID'd. It just will not happen. So wait till when?

Free Press. Stay strong.


I believe in free press but I also believe in being tactful. And you know they will not 'most' care about ratings, ratings, ratings. As I said above:
Originally posted by sdw65:

I believe the ban of media photographers is because most media outlets can't be trusted. Each media trying to out do the others ratings. You know they would show the bodies on TV not caring one ounce about the trauma it would put a family through that may see a love-one bloated, half decade, and dead while they still had hopes they were alive. That would be real tasteful wouldn't it? NOT!

While people are still looking to be reunited with love-ones and they don't know what there fate is I don't believe it should be shown on national news.

09/07/2005 11:43:29 PM · #87
Were photos being taken when they were pulling out body parts after 9/11 or the bodies of the people that jumped from the WTC towers? I don't recall seeing any in the news back then.

Btw, photographers have been taking pictures of the bodies in NO up to this point. I've seen them. Not sure why we need to see more when it should be obvious to everyone that many people died.

Message edited by author 2005-09-07 23:45:22.
09/07/2005 11:52:41 PM · #88
Originally posted by yanko:

Were photos being taken when they were pulling out body parts after 9/11 or the bodies of the people that jumped from the WTC towers? I don't recall seeing any in the news back then.

Btw, photographers have been taking pictures of the bodies in NO up to this point. I've seen them. Not sure why we need to see more when it should be obvious to everyone that many people died.


That's because no one until now has shown up to stop them.

Since the tsunami hit, the mainstream press and, to a lesser extent, the broadcast and cable network news programs, have been chockfull of images of the freshly dead. We’ve seen images of bodies of children and adults where the water left them; we’ve seen them arranged in neat rows; we’ve seen them bagged and stacked.

What is perhaps more worthy of note than how many tsunami dead we’ve seen, however, is how many other recent dead we have not seen.


09/08/2005 12:25:41 AM · #89
San Diego Cedar fires October 27-31, 2003. Many neighbor hoods burned to the ground (many the upper crust dwellings), Many of my familys friends and co-coworkers; homes gone...got to within 4 miles of my house probably closer to BradP.

Now I don't know if the world seen the same type imagery as we are seeing with current situation. The devastation and loss was not nearly as much as New Orleans but if you was standing where I was you'd swear it was a war zone. Many of us do see these things. There was another fire just over the hill this weekend, kind of brought back memories.

The interesting part that we forget and the media tends to overlook is the local bueracies <sp> in regards to the lack of timely response.

Camp Pendleton the largest Marine Base is just north of us here and just to the south (fire made it to their fence)is MCAS Miramar (Marine Airwing). When it was obvious that the fires were becoming quite large, the Good old Jarheads suited up and prepared to mount their copters and pitch in... Oddly enough the CDF (California Department of Forestry) forbid the Marines from taking part in the firefighting effort, stating that the Marines were not qualified to fight fires...the same guys/gals who fight the fires that break out on Camp Pendleton...Hmmmm.... Well they sat by their copters for two days waiting to get the call. Did the City have a dedicated copter, no they would not fund that.

It seems that priorities don't always involve thinking. We can always go for the top, but I bet one doesn't have to look to far from home to see that priorities got goofed up a little closer.

I really hate to say this (haven't heard anything about it yet) is that the muggings haven't even begun. If the Insurance structure is anything like it was in CA. down there in LA. (I hope the priorities are better there) than there is a whole other nightmare about to rear it's ugly head. My buddy from work just finished his house a couple months ago after fighting over pennies with his insurance company. Many could not rebuild due to Insurance loop holes and what not. Many sold and left the area. There was/is some real ugliness when people attempt to collect what they believe owed to them from these agencies.

Then there was that group (local chapter) collecting money for fire relief that a lot of the monies collected was moved outside of the county for things unrelated to the (any) fire. That group has been reorginized since and hopefully better today.

Sorry I got a little off track...but others do see these things...

Message edited by author 2005-09-08 00:27:10.
09/08/2005 02:34:44 AM · #90
Originally posted by nsbca7:

Originally posted by yanko:

Were photos being taken when they were pulling out body parts after 9/11 or the bodies of the people that jumped from the WTC towers? I don't recall seeing any in the news back then.

Btw, photographers have been taking pictures of the bodies in NO up to this point. I've seen them. Not sure why we need to see more when it should be obvious to everyone that many people died.


That's because no one until now has shown up to stop them.

Since the tsunami hit, the mainstream press and, to a lesser extent, the broadcast and cable network news programs, have been chockfull of images of the freshly dead. We’ve seen images of bodies of children and adults where the water left them; we’ve seen them arranged in neat rows; we’ve seen them bagged and stacked.

What is perhaps more worthy of note than how many tsunami dead we’ve seen, however, is how many other recent dead we have not seen.



Exactly. However they are there now, which kind of defeats the purpose of taking more of these pictures now. The article you posted gives great examples of powerful pictures of this sort but they all deal with an ongoing "wrong" needing to be stopped. Here things are finally going right and there are already calls for investigations which will happen. FEMA will undergo changes. The story right now is the overwhelming support people are giving to one another and the additional support still needed. The magnitude of this disaster has already been felt. People are acting and things will be changed. We can't undo what has already happened and no photo is going to change that.

In my opinion photos of this sort should be used sparingly if the goal is to shock people into acting. With that said I think the effects of this type of photography is a bit overrrated. The article mentions the Abu Ghraib photos, which I would use to come to a different conclusion the author does. Fact is it did cause an uproar and then guess what? It died down so now there's a push to get the rest of those photos out that are supposedly more grotesque, which isn't going to change anything if the first batch didn't. Fact is their was more people actively protesting the Iraq war then now and if it wasn't for Cindy Sheehan revitalizing it the war would be even less on people's mind. Regardless, the point I think I was set out to make was if you wanted to show these pictures perhaps last week was the time to do so and some were shown. That's when they were needed to be shown. Not now. Not when family members are watching and may recognize their loved one pulled out of the water. What good does that serve?

Message edited by author 2005-09-08 02:41:05.
09/08/2005 02:49:24 AM · #91
Originally posted by yanko:

Not now. Not when family members are watching and may recognize their loved one pulled out of the water. What good does that serve?


You still don't get it. Who is going to recognize what? I will repeat, the point you are trying to make is moot. I have no idea where you are from, but I can tell this much. You have no idea what happens to a body in Louisiana 90+ degree summer heat after 10 days. There must be thousands of dogs that were left behind roaming the streets and wooded areas in NO right now. When do you think the last time those dogs were fed and what do you think they are eating right now. Graphic I know. But this has to be documented (and I'm sure it will be to some great extent regardless) so that we can look back on this some years from now and say, no, we will not let this happen again. Without that documentation it will all be as much myth in a few generations as Atlantis.

Message edited by author 2005-09-08 02:50:45.
09/08/2005 11:32:04 AM · #92
NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 7 - In the downtown business district here, on a dry stretch of Union Street, past the Omni Bank automated teller machine, across from a parking garage offering "early bird" rates: a corpse. Its feet jut from a damp blue tarp. Its knees rise in rigor mortis.

Six National Guardsmen walked up to it on Tuesday afternoon and two blessed themselves with the sign of the cross. One soldier took a parting snapshot like some visiting conventioneer, and they walked away. New Orleans, September 2005. - NYTimes


As I said earlier, there are just too many people in there for this not to be documented to some great degree no matter who tries to suppress what.

09/08/2005 12:43:05 PM · #93
An update:

The following was posted on a sportshooter.com thread by Chris Stanfield, President of Associated Press Photo Managers.

->> After doing some research, I wanted to share with you what I found out. I spoke with Debbie Charles at Reuters who collected the information (the email response) from FEMA after making a request to have a photographer and reporter to accompany the rescue boats.

To her surprise, the information and conversations she had regarding the event were then taken by another person and made into a news story. After reading her the lead of the Reuters story over the phone, she agreed that the first paragraph was inaccurate:

ORLEANS (Reuters) - The U.S. government agency leading the rescue efforts after Hurricane Katrina said Tuesday it does not want the news media to take photographs of the dead as they are recovered from the flooded New Orleans
area.

The second paragraph of the story IS accurate:

The Federal Emergency Management Agency, heavily criticized
for its slow response to the devastation caused by the hurricane, rejected requests from journalists to accompany rescue boats as they went out to search for storm victims.

Debbie said that her request to get on the boats was denied more due to a policy stemming from FEMA concerning space in the boat should they come across bodies or folks stranded - that they'd need the space in the boat to get them out of the area.

Regarding the photographing of the deceased... Debbie said that FEMA was more concerned with photographing bodies that hadn't had a chance to be identified or that FEMA hadn't had a chance to inform families about. She went on to say that her impression of the request wasn't that FEMA was trying to restrict photos of bodies being made altogether.

If you look at the wires, there are plenty photos of the deceased coming across. I have no doubt that FEMA is restricting access to other operations across the country, but after talking with folks in New Orleans, Baton Rouge and Mississippi, the restrictions seemed to be stemming more out of a concern for HIPPA and privacy. Although slow and limited, some news operations are getting access in places like the Houston Astrodome and other shelters across the country.

Throughout our nation’s history, the ability of a free press to report and document our nation’s tragedies is crucial to having an informed public who will inevitably begin to search for answers and seek solutions in the weeks and months to come. Without the photographs and news stories that bring clarity and scope to such a tragedy, the American public is denied the right to draw informed and intelligent conclusions and then learn from them.

We should urge all government agencies involved with assisting citizens affected by Hurricane Katrina to work with news organizations in the same fashion. A great deal of the healing process for so many people involves their ability to tell their stories so that others may cope, understand and heal alongside them.

With regards,
Chris Stanfield
Director of Photography
Pioneer Press
St. Paul, MN

President
Associated Press Photo Managers


Edit: Source: //www.sportsshooter.com thread

Message edited by author 2005-09-08 12:57:46.
09/08/2005 03:32:46 PM · #94
That second paragraph.

Hmmm, it'll almost always get ya. ;)
09/08/2005 04:00:37 PM · #95
Living in Alabama and Florida, I've been through several hurricanes. The aftermath will make anyone with a heart sick. The police or morgue do take photos for identification purposes. They will also be looking over the bodies to make sure it was the storm and not the fighting afterwards that killed them. I wish people that have never been through such a disaster would not let rumors corupt their minds. It's not the governments fault. Nature dealt a blow and now we have to deal with it. The area has to be safe before going in to rescue. I just wish people would understand.
This makes for good reading :

An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State

It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think that we are confronting a natural disaster.

If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors, nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild.

Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists--myself included--did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting.

But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.

The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong.

The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over the past four days. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.

For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an emergency--indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what we expect from a Third World country.

When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of us. I have seen this a hundred times, in small examples (a small town whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing cars through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response of New Yorkers to September 11).

So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?

To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a description from a Washington Times story:

"Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists, knives and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets; and police and rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on.

"The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen poured in to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and gunfire....

"Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened Arkansas National Guard members were inside New Orleans with shoot-to-kill orders.

" 'These troops are...under my orders to restore order in the streets,' she said. 'They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will.' "

The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this article shows National Guard troops, with rifles and armored vests, riding on an armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a rabble of squalid, listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling at them. It looks exactly like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad.

What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to drive away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Super Dome?

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?

My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage last night on Fox News Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Chicago, which is located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in America. "The projects," as they were known, were infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have since, mercifully, been demolished.)

What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a whiff of the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"--the informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news channels--gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of the 300,000 or so who remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects. Jack Wakeland then gave me an additional, crucial fact: early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails--so they just let many of them loose. There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa.

There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit--but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two groups: criminals--and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The welfare wards were a mass of sheep--on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves.

All of this is related, incidentally, to the apparent incompetence of the city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the city, despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. But in a city corrupted by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure the flow of handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political supporters--not to ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of emergency.

No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism.

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. They don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them.

The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

Source: TIA Daily -- September 2, 2005


09/08/2005 04:14:08 PM · #96
That last post has nothing to do with photographing the dead but it is an interesting read. Perhaps it deserves its own thread?
09/08/2005 04:29:29 PM · #97
Originally posted by Shiiizzzam:

The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

Source: TIA Daily -- September 2, 2005


I will agree that some level of self initiative would have gone a long way. When we get hit by hurricanes some of us pick up the chainsaws and help open the roads back up while others go out and break the windshields out of their own cars to collect insurance or sit in their houses and complain about not having A/C.

But to blame all of this on the city government and the people who went days without food and water and call them welfare people, some of whom as we speak may be still trapped in their attics, is about as far blown as someone who says this is all G W Bush's fault.

There were enough mis-steps in this that many who were involved directly or indirectly can comfortably carry some of the responsibilty from the citizens of No on up.

This is a thread about the moral and legal issues related to photojounalism in New Orleans. Though I expect some degree of politics to enter this thread your post is pure politcal rant without any refference to the OP or the subject at hand. In the future please reserve such posts to the Rant forum as there are plenty of threads on this topic you may want to participate in. Thank you, Martin

SC: I will expect that if you are to monitor these threads, any future posts that would in your oppinion turn this(or any other thread) into what you percieve as a rant be deleted instead of locking down the whole thread. We (most of us) are having a healthy discussion about censorship and the use of jounalistic images.

Message edited by author 2005-09-08 16:43:09.
09/08/2005 04:52:43 PM · #98
//www.jamesnachtwey.com/

Please look at rwonda and famine. WARNING! SHOCKING IMAGES! but the most beautiful representations of the tragedies of humanity I have ever seen. I would hate to think if he had never been allowed to enter these countries. This, again, IS AMERICA!

DRAKE
09/08/2005 05:04:08 PM · #99
After a few years of being a member of DPC...pretty much since it's start...I think I can figure out what to say where without need for topic remarks.
That being said...ALL I'm saying is sometimes we are told no photos can be taken and there is usally a good reason for it. Me being from the area and going through such a disaster I can understand why they say that. The other part of my post is just a little FYI kinda stuff.
09/08/2005 05:28:26 PM · #100
Originally posted by nsbca7:


SC: I will expect that if you are to monitor these threads, any future posts that would in your oppinion turn this(or any other thread) into what you percieve as a rant be deleted instead of locking down the whole thread. We (most of us) are having a healthy discussion about censorship and the use of jounalistic images.


on the contrary, any thread that devolves into political opinionating gets punted into the rant forum as a general rule. there were a couple of posts here that get into blame and opinions, and THAT is what is what would push it into rant.

only hiding certain posts would then be considered, IMHO, censorship. i'm not gonna do that. if the debate did move into the political realm, the entire thing would move to rant. a healthy debate could continue there with the thread wholly intact.

because this discussion does have a photographic context, i've kept it in the public forums. we just need to make sure that we keep the discussion centered on the photography aspect here. there are other threads in which to bash politicians and the like.

that's all i meant by "teetering." keep the politics to a minimum, and it's fine where it is.

edited to say: moving the thread to Rant is definitely not the same as locking it. locking a thread indicates that it has no purpose on this site at all. moving it means that it's fine to keep on the site, but it's moved as a courtesy to those who have no wish to view "rant" posts.

Message edited by author 2005-09-08 17:30:08.
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