| Author | Thread |
|
|
05/23/2003 05:01:44 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I don't think it makes any difference who posts what unless they post their challenge photo to the forums before or during the challenge... You made your point about not posting these images but you didn't say why it wasn't ok. Care to elaborate? |
I (and some others) spoke to the issue in this thread. |
Respectfully, you didn't actually speak to his specific question over there, you just did more of what he's asking about. :-> |
|
|
|
05/23/2003 05:06:12 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Bod, that's a great shot... Its definitely better than mine without a doubt... mine was a rehash of my 'magnetic patriotism' photo that I did last winter... it's stuffed in my 'abstract' portfolio here on dpc i think... |
I preferred your reflection, mine seemed a little 'forced' to fit the challenge.
I remember Magnetic Patriotism well, and I remember who you nicked the idea off before I nicked it off you ; )
|
|
|
|
05/23/2003 05:06:36 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Yeah but what if your photo stops someone from submitting just because they feel inadequate to your outake? |
I can't answer that... I don't have an objective to keep people from submitting. I always enjoy viewing the better images in the challenges though... I'm interested in seeing outtakes. I like to see other ideas and get a feeling for what makes people tick.
You can't seriously think the photo I posted would have much, if any, impact on anyone.... It's a lifeless bit of metal. There are parts of it that are out of focus... there is a blown out spot on the wrench... You can't honestly tell me that this photo is setting any examples here :) |
You know, I think that last couple of statements from you makes this an incredibly valuable thread. It's forced me to go back and take a look again. Second look, I see the blowout, and I see the focus issue. It's a reminder that you have to go back and take another look sometimes.
|
|
|
|
05/23/2003 05:20:34 PM · #29 |
I haven't even looked at the picture, so I have no opinion on it.
I cannot see where posting a photo specifically related to the currently open challenge is not a violation of the spirit of DPC rules. Why bother to have the challenge at all...just start a thread on the current topic and everyone can just post their photos there and comment as we go along...
Discussing specific photos is clearly discouraged, even during the voting. Doing so before the voting starts seems inconsistent and unfair. |
|
|
|
05/23/2003 05:22:34 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I haven't even looked at the picture, so I have no opinion on it.
I cannot see where posting a photo specifically related to the currently open challenge is not a violation of the spirit of DPC rules. Why bother to have the challenge at all...just start a thread on the current topic and everyone can just post their photos there and comment as we go along...
Discussing specific photos is clearly discouraged, even during the voting. Doing so before the voting starts seems inconsistent and unfair. |
Since this is not a challenge photo or an outtake, if i had titled this thread "comments please?" would it ahve made any difference?
|
|
|
|
05/23/2003 05:29:41 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Since this is not a challenge photo or an outtake, if i had titled this thread "comments please?" would it ahve made any difference? |
Unfortunately, I think it would have made a difference.
My opinion: no spoiler, no problem. |
|
|
|
05/23/2003 05:40:56 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by StevePax:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Since this is not a challenge photo or an outtake, if i had titled this thread "comments please?" would it ahve made any difference? |
Unfortunately, I think it would have made a difference.
My opinion: no spoiler, no problem. |
Might have made a difference, until people start saying "hey, that would make a great duotone entry..."
I guess I have some ambivalence about all the extra comment threads because I don't have enough time to check them all, and because I think there's a definite variation in the response activity closely correlated with the photo's taker...
It seems as though a better way of doing this now is to post the image to your portfolio, post a link in a running "Newly Posted-Comments Please" thread, and carry on the actual discussion of the photo in it's own comment area, rather than in the forums.
Message edited by author 2003-05-23 17:41:32. |
|
|
|
05/23/2003 06:11:18 PM · #33 |
I gotta agree with The General on this one. If you ask a bunch of kids to draw a picture of a spaceship, 90% of them will draw an inverted saucer, even though none of them have ever actually seen one. If you ask them to draw sphygmomanometer, you'll get all kinds of creative and unique ideas because they have no preconceived notions about it (it's a blood pressure machine by the way).
When somebody posts a picture - whether or not it will be entered - particularly a well-respected name, the creativity may be compromised, because we know jmsetzler shots usually score well.
blemt is right - this IS a valuable thread about the picture itself, but it would be no less valuable in two weeks, after the challenge results are in.
and THAT, your honor, is all I have to say about that.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I haven't even looked at the picture, so I have no opinion on it.
I cannot see where posting a photo specifically related to the currently open challenge is not a violation of the spirit of DPC rules. Why bother to have the challenge at all...just start a thread on the current topic and everyone can just post their photos there and comment as we go along...
Discussing specific photos is clearly discouraged, even during the voting. Doing so before the voting starts seems inconsistent and unfair. |
Message edited by author 2003-05-23 18:12:09.
|
|
|
|
05/23/2003 06:20:00 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Might have made a difference, until people start saying "hey, that would make a great duotone entry..." |
this is ludicrous. there are about 3 trillion black and white, sepia, and duotone examples freely available on the web. you're going to complain about one that isn't even going to be entered? cmon now. this has to be arguing for the sake of arguing, which is cool, but still ludicrous
Message edited by author 2003-05-23 18:21:33. |
|
|
|
05/23/2003 06:20:54 PM · #35 |
With all due respect to the talent of Mr. Setzler, I would like to add my thoughts on this subject.
I would have prefered to have seen the request for "comments please". rather than just the link to the picture. It wasn't clear why it was being posted before the start of the challenge. There also was no immediate disclaimer about it not being entered or not in the challenge. That was added in a later post, after many were already startled by it being posted.
Secondly, and personally, I don't see greatness in this photo, no matter WHO took it, and I usually like John's work very much! The subject matter is bland, there are pockets of unfocused area that are distracting, there is no solid reference point to the "extension" relating to the wrench, and little enough definition to the extension itself to show that it IS an extension!
Thirdly, Even though I am "just a woman", I have seen wrenches in all kinds of vingettes over the last 45 years, and found real beauty in many of them. So, I know pictures of tools can have an "impact" (no pun intended).
Lastly, these are just my opinions, but I do not believe this is John's best work for a challenge, and certainly not the standard by which others should consider pulling their entries from the challenge, because they have already viewed Mr. Setzler's offering. I almost believe he would agree!
|
|
|
|
05/23/2003 06:24:43 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by achiral:
[quote]this is ludicrous. there are about 3 trillion black and white, sepia, and duotone examples freely available on the web. you're going to complain about one that isn't even going to be entered? cmon now. this has to be arguing for the sake of arguing, which is cool, but still ludicrous |
Yeah, but only one that I've seen posted at DPC under the title "My Duotone Photo"... ;-)
Message edited by author 2003-05-23 18:27:28. |
|
|
|
05/23/2003 06:26:38 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by cameo:
Secondly, and personally, I don't see greatness in this photo, no matter WHO took it, and I usually like John's work very much! The subject matter is bland, there are pockets of unfocused area that are distracting, there is no solid reference point to the "extension" relating to the wrench, and little enough definition to the extension itself to show that it IS an extension!
|
I'm glad u brought this point up...
"Extension"
This is the first shot in a series that i would like to put together... what you see in this image is an 'extension' of the human hand that allows us to make things... fabricate... form... shape... create...
The exposure on this shot is deliberate...
|
|
|
|
05/23/2003 06:31:56 PM · #38 |
John,
I'm sure that seeing it in a series would add a lot more clarity to the subject, and what you want it to depict. I would like to be able to see the finished series sometime.
My preferences would run to the early machine tools that my husband has collected, but I can understand, too, what you are aiming at.
|
|
|
|
05/23/2003 06:36:21 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I haven't even looked at the picture, so I have no opinion on it.
I cannot see where posting a photo specifically related to the currently open challenge is not a violation of the spirit of DPC rules. Why bother to have the challenge at all...just start a thread on the current topic and everyone can just post their photos there and comment as we go along...
Discussing specific photos is clearly discouraged, even during the voting. Doing so before the voting starts seems inconsistent and unfair. |
I disagree. If John had said 'here's my entry - what do you think' that would be very different. Otherwise, what does it matter if he took it this week or last year ?
Often we get questions like 'what are examples of ' and this is a direct example of a duotone shot - it isn't an entry. It isn't even one of several being considered for entry.
It's about as relevent as saying //images.google.com/images?q=duotone is unfair.
Message edited by author 2003-05-23 20:27:35. |
|
|
|
05/23/2003 07:09:45 PM · #40 |
| maybe the title of the thread is the issue "My Duotone Photo" and with the challenge being called duotone it creates the issue of it being an outake on the challenge. |
|
|
|
05/23/2003 07:09:48 PM · #41 |
Update Edit:Geez.. I skip the last 4 posts in the threat, and end up repeating Gordon almost exactly. Ahh well.. what he said.
If you're going to discourage users from posting their own pre-challenge outtakes (or from users who aren't submitting at all, like in this case), you'd also have to prohibit the linking of images that would be a good example of the challenge.
This is common practice, especially in challenges regarding technical photographic techniques, like rhythm. I remember there being a thread before the rhythm challenge that presented a number of example photographs that were good examples of rhythm, so that people could better understand the concept.
So, GeneralE (and others with similar views), would you also wish these threads were not allowed?
For that matter, anyone could be influenced by simply searching the net for "duotone photography", and we can hardly forbid that.
Message edited by author 2003-05-23 19:13:18. |
|
|
|
05/23/2003 07:10:48 PM · #42 |
I enjoyed John's link to Brooks Jensen's site about his book "Made of Steel". It reminded me of the years I spent in the automotive trade as an automotive machinist. The grease, the cuts and bruises, and especially the characters that I met along the way.
Today I went to see the traveling exhibition of our recent 9/11 tragedy, and I took the following picture of one of Tracy's fire trucks. I am not considering this end of the truck as an entry in the Duotone Challenge, so my entry will be entirely different.
One of my Duotones. |
|
|
|
05/23/2003 08:29:02 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by autool:
I enjoyed John's link to Brooks Jensen's site about his book "Made of Steel". It reminded me of the years I spent in the automotive trade as an automotive machinist. The grease, the cuts and bruises, and especially the characters that I met along the way.
Today I went to see the traveling exhibition of our recent 9/11 tragedy, and I took the following picture of one of Tracy's fire trucks. I am not considering this end of the truck as an entry in the Duotone Challenge, so my entry will be entirely different.
One of my Duotones. |
That's a strange choice for a duotoned subject - fireengine colour being one of the most obvious things about a fire engine. Note I didn't say, bad I just said strange - any particular motivation for the B&W treatment of a 'fire-engine red' subject ? |
|
|
|
05/23/2003 09:03:01 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
That's a strange choice for a duotoned subject - fireengine colour being one of the most obvious things about a fire engine. Note I didn't say, bad I just said strange - any particular motivation for the B&W treatment of a 'fire-engine red' subject ? |
I was thinking the shiny metal and chrome lended itself to the duotone, the red of the fire engine just came along with it. |
|
|
|
05/23/2003 10:04:43 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by wingy:
So, GeneralE (and others with similar views), would you also wish these threads were not allowed?
For that matter, anyone could be influenced by simply searching the net for "duotone photography", and we can hardly forbid that. |
Over at Worth1000 they put up an exemplar image with every challenge. That is not what is going on here. That would be OK. Even having a thread with examples would be OK, but why not use examples ineligble for the current challenge? (Like from last week/year, another photographer, etc.)
There's a major difference between research/discussion taking place on the net, or via PM or email, versus posting images here in the forums. It is not the activity I don't like -- one of the first things I did when joining this site was send John some images for his evaluation and advice, way back before he became so popular -- but rather the mechanism being used.
It is not John or his image -- this issue came up earlier in the Matrix Outtake thread I mentioned, and this was just a continuation of that. It is not that it is SO awful a thing to do, but I think it represents a significant change in practice around DPC, and it is being accomplished with no poll, no input from the admins, or anything. I just think there are better ways (as I suggested) of accomplishing the same thing.
Message edited by author 2003-05-23 22:08:10. |
|
|
|
05/24/2003 01:03:58 AM · #46 |
john decided not to enter this pic. so he decided to share it with everyone. just as an example, and a window into one person's process of coming up with a shot. maybe he didnt convey that very clearly. but i happen to know all this because he told me that he decided not to enter that picture, that he felt it had too many problems and he had some other ideas :).
HELLO, john has a track record of NOT doing sleazy stuff. he DOESNT HAVE TO, his photography is good enough without having to stuff ballot boxes :P. and how quickly people forget, but let's give people who have earned it the benefit of the doubt. it's not that we cut John slack because we're supposedly 'in awe of his celebrity'. that's total crap, and anyone who would say that hasn't been around here for the entire past year. This is a guy who has stuck around here and given a LOT of his time and energy trying to help other people realise their potential. VERY patiently, too.
I'm still not really clear as to what people are afraid of about all this. as others have said, 'i need feedback on a picture i want to enter' is totally different from 'here's a picture im not going to enter that's related'. is it that they might double cross everyone and enter it anyway? woo. if that's the case, it would almost certainly be a victim of backlash voting.
anyway, that's my take on this issue .. YMMV :P
Message edited by author 2003-05-24 01:05:16.
|
|
|
|
05/24/2003 01:15:56 AM · #47 |
I think it's funny how people jumped on GeneralE :) Gee, because he happens to question the intent of some of the "popular" people on here?
DPC has become the playground of the "prima-donnas" :) sorry, but if you make any criticism of the top "3" photos in any given challenge, you get hell for it. if you make any criticism on someone's "Hey, LOOK AT MY PHOTO!" post, you get hell for it if the person that posted it is one of the prima-donnas, sort like PhotoSig.
I don't know which I dislike worse -- the daily boohoos about someone winning POTD, as if it's a big deal (FYI, i actually did get one posted on TV from a local station last month, my first submission of a so-so photo. Big deal!), or, whther it's endless whinning about scoring and how siginificant getting a low score on DPC means (The question to ask for all you whiners is: Is getting a high score on DPC means that you're a good photographer? i'm going to giggle if you believe that), or the endless tutorials that are based on some "rules" which are meaningles.
But c'mon, all GeneralE is saying is that people shouldn't be posting anything related to the challenge until the challenge has finished voting. No outtakes, nothing. I think that's fair. If you have such a need to show your work, then don't post it as the current challenge, just ask for comments.
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
john decided not to enter this pic. so he decided to share it with everyone. just as an example, and a window into one person's process of coming up with a shot. maybe he didnt convey that very clearly. but i happen to know all this because he told me that he decided not to enter that picture, that he felt it had too many problems and he had some other ideas :).
HELLO, john has a track record of NOT doing sleazy stuff. he DOESNT HAVE TO, his photography is good enough without having to stuff ballot boxes :P. and how quickly people forget, but let's give people who have earned it the benefit of the doubt. it's not that we cut John slack because we're supposedly 'in awe of his celebrity'. that's total crap, and anyone who would say that hasn't been around here for the entire past year. This is a guy who has stuck around here and given a LOT of his time and energy trying to help other people realise their potential. VERY patiently, too.
I'm still not really clear as to what people are afraid of about all this. as others have said, 'i need feedback on a picture i want to enter' is totally different from 'here's a picture im not going to enter that's related'. is it that they might double cross everyone and enter it anyway? woo. if that's the case, it would almost certainly be a victim of backlash voting.
anyway, that's my take on this issue .. YMMV :P |
|
|
|
|
05/24/2003 02:09:27 AM · #48 |
oh chill. It isnt that people can't take criticism. It's that you rub everyone the wrong way because of your peculiar combination of irrelevant yet volatile declarations, insults of others, and lack of desire (ability?) to listen to or acknowledge other people's perspectives :). I'm not saying this to dis you but to make you aware that I think alot of people are open to criticism, but communication-style is an important element, too.
GeneralE knows I'm not jumping on him, I'm sure. I'm just pointing out that John is a dude that doesn't have to cheat, why would he?
You make such a big deal about how doing well is so meaningless that it seems that you secretly wish you could get a high score :). "Methinks he doth protest too much" ;).
Message edited by author 2003-05-24 02:35:18.
|
|
|
|
05/24/2003 02:22:25 AM · #49 |
Oh the great magnetic speaks again. How humble am I to see you on here with the master of the rulebook composition!
I think it's funny how I am being called the "troll" when I make comments on other's photos, when in fact the trolling was done by the photographer who couldn't take the criticism. Perhaps something is wrong in their ego? Put it this way, oh great magnetic, if you are that good as you apparently claim you are, why are you bothered by my comments? Sounds like insecurity to me.
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
oh chill out Tony :P. You've got major perception AND communication problems, only you're the only person on this site that doesn't realize it. LOL.
GeneralE knows I'm not jumping on him, I'm sure. I'm just pointing out that John is a dude that doesn't have to cheat, why would he?
You make such a big deal about how doing well is so meaningless that it just reinforces how obvious it is that you WISH YOU COULD GET A HIGH SCORE :). "Methinks he doth protest too much" ;).
Since you are so sure that you are so much better than everyone else on this site it eats you up inside that you don't win, and you have to go make totally irrelevant troll posts all over other people's pictures. It's classic! :) |
Message edited by author 2003-05-24 02:25:42. |
|
|
|
05/24/2003 02:24:20 AM · #50 |
And since no one cares for the rules anymore about not discussing current challenges by showing images.. well, here is a duotone image :)
Comet Falls |
|
