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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> 20D - Scratched Sensor - B&H
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08/04/2005 11:55:33 AM · #26
I honestly felt this way, too, until I got frustrated with my local pro shop. I ordered a common lens from our local store, spending 20% more than I would have spent online at B&H, and it took over three weeks to get here, and I had no ability to track the order.

So, I just ordered a new D70s and a SB-800 from B&H yesterday, and it's scheduled to arrive tomorrow! I'll be anxiously waiting at the door tomorrow, and I'm sure I got a MUCH better price than I would have gotten from the local guys.

I really hate to hear myself say that, because I really want to support the little guy, but at the same time I'd like a fair price and promptness. I'm sure there are plenty of good local shops around, but mine has disappointed me.

Originally posted by Gil P:

while I understand that many people do not have access to "pro" outlets in their area... I really do encourage those who do to go in, pay a little bit more money and get the support, knowledge and service that comes with it.
08/04/2005 12:08:27 PM · #27
Henry
Interesting responses. I'm glad to hear the issue was resolved without your involvement. Also good to know that your security is spot on.

You're right that we'll have to agree to disagree on the issue of charging a customer twice - I'd agree with you if it were a case of replacing an item the customer had themselves damaged or where the customer was at fault in some regard but - this was a case where B&H made the error. Some people don't have skyhigh spending limits on their credit cards and may find it quite a hardship to have to pay an additional $1000 dollars even it's going to be refunded.

I hope the last point you made doesn't imply that you think it's OK to rest on your laurels and to dismiss the importance of each and every transaction?

Believe me, I'm not trying to pick on you but... your tone just doesn't come across as very concerned. It's easy to write an apology, it's not as easy to be genuinely concerned about it.
08/04/2005 12:13:38 PM · #28
"while I understand that many people do not have access to "pro" outlets in their area... I really do encourage those who do to go in, pay a little bit more money and get the support, knowledge and service that comes with it."

Actually, I believe B&H is considered a pro shop. Second, there is a possibility here which I think B&H should possibly consider.

Is it possible that "Canon" is the mis-doer here? Could Canon be sending out "re-furbs" as "new units". Seems like quite the possibility. We know Dell has done this and so have many other big name manufacturers.

I think it's quite the possible cause. And would explain the situation clearly. On the flip side, it might be worth it to B&H to check into the matter as such mis-behaviors by manufacturers will likely be blamed on the dealers.
08/04/2005 12:19:55 PM · #29
Originally posted by Kavey:

Believe me, I'm not trying to pick on you but... your tone just doesn't come across as very concerned. It's easy to write an apology, it's not as easy to be genuinely concerned about it.


Kavey, I totally disagree with you. His explanation and response is completely satisfactory, in my opinion. You're the one who questioned warehouse management, etc. without any insight into the situation...enough, already.
08/04/2005 12:20:29 PM · #30
I do not intend to drudge up even more discontent... but couldn't it be even remotely possible this was a demo unit and got put back into the manufacturer box? I wouldn't think they had it returned from a customer and then put it back on the shelf. Even if it was a demo unit situation, I'm sure it wouldn't be intentional and mistakes do (obviously) happen.

I consider B&H a pro shop and even though we do have one locally I don't shop there. The guys at the counter are not very friendly or helpful and their prices are much higher than B&H.
08/04/2005 12:30:14 PM · #31
I do order some things from B&H, but I found my D70 at a place called One Call
out of Washington State. Great people. Not pushy or rude.

No offense, but the folks in New York camera shops are not the friendliest.

Jeremy

Message edited by author 2005-08-04 12:31:30.
08/04/2005 12:50:42 PM · #32
Henry,
Sorry for the error on your name and title at B&H.
I've bought several items at B&H as well with no problems as well.
Thank you for your interest and involvement with this forum.
Your concern surely reflects the stellar reputation that B&H enjoys among photographers of all levels.
I tend to shop by the lowest price but this level of service you and B&H provides makes me rethink such decision. In all my future purchases, I will consider B&H first.

08/04/2005 01:01:37 PM · #33
I need to state there that I have bought numerous items from B&H only in the past 2 weeks and have been very pleased.... in fact I will only buy items from them in the future based upon my satisfaction. Secondly I have to state that seeing Henry post on here to comment on the situation shows that they really do take customer satisfaction seriously. Given the amount of orders that they receive a day and their busy schedule it is very rare to get a response from a large store such as this and in such a timely manner. No other store would have even bothered to go to such an extent. Lets see Amazon or Dell do this when somebody complains (which there are frequent complaints).

Mistakes were made... and they were corrected. I'm sure it's not the first time something has gone wrong via an internet purchase and it won't be the last. Just remember that it could have been worse.

When I get the cash for my 70/200 f/4.0 ... I know where I'll be getting it now!

Message edited by author 2005-08-04 13:05:28.
08/04/2005 01:05:46 PM · #34
Originally posted by JayWalk:

I need to state there that I have bought numerous items from B&H only in the past 2 weeks and have been very pleased.... in fact I will only buy items from them in the future based upon my satisfaction. Secondly I have to state that seeing Henry post on here to comment on the situation shows that they really do take customer satisfaction seriously. Given the amount of orders that they receive a day and their busy schedule it is very rare to get a response from a large store such as this and in such a timely manner. No other store would have even bothered to go to such an extent. Lets see Amazon or Dell do this when somebody complains (which there are frequent complaints).

Mistakes were made... and they were corrected. I'm sure it's not the first time something has gone wrong via an internet purchase and it won't be the last. Just remember that it could have been worse.


Here, here... I complained about repeatedly delayed shipment at Amazon and no one even bother to respond. Not even a computer generated automatic response. Geeez.

Now if Henry could only tell us about a the new Canon sSLR that might be coming up to replace the 20D, as B&H seems to be the first to get the new products.

He he, well never hurts to ask, right?

Message edited by author 2005-08-04 13:07:32.
08/04/2005 01:05:58 PM · #35
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by Kavey:

Believe me, I'm not trying to pick on you but... your tone just doesn't come across as very concerned. It's easy to write an apology, it's not as easy to be genuinely concerned about it.

Kavey, I totally disagree with you. His explanation and response is completely satisfactory, in my opinion. You're the one who questioned warehouse management, etc. without any insight into the situation...enough, already.

Hey! I didn't make any accusations, I asked a question about whether it was a possibility as I was genuinely curiousn as to whether it might be. The fact that one person takes something a certain way certainly doesn't oblige everyone else to and I haven't been rude to Henry by stating my opinions. If you want to have a go at someone, have a go at whoever actually posted that too much weed smoking was going on.

This is precisely the attitude (question nothing, accept everything that is said, and if you question at all, certainly take the all responses at face value) that worries me about much of politics today.

I'm very glad to hear that this has been resolved and continue to read a majority of great reports on B&H service and feedback. That doesn't mean I don't have the right to question, give my opinion and follow up on that just because you don't like it.

Message edited by author 2005-08-04 13:06:54.
08/04/2005 01:21:06 PM · #36
Sorry, you're right I misquoted...I apologize.

Your post seemed accusatory after he had already solved the problem and I didn't understand what you were trying to accomplish.

As for talking about politics...huh?

As for smoking weed, every warehouse has employees that smoke weed. At least in Canada.
08/04/2005 01:27:56 PM · #37
ROFL I can't say I've experienced too many UK warehouses to comment! :o)

I was trying to get a better understanding for myself of what the real attitude was over at B&H. I judge a vendor not by the cases they get right (though their % of happy customers is always important) but also by how they deal with the things they do get wrong. Every company makes mistakes. I like to see how they deal with it. I perceived Henry's tone differently from you - i just wanted to follow up.

The politics comment should perhaps have said DEBATE. Too many see debate or discussion as the same as confrontation and aggression. I don't.
08/04/2005 01:34:37 PM · #38
Originally posted by lhall:

Originally posted by doctornick:


Take a JPG shot with it then use an EXIF viewer, it will tell you how many actuations the shutter has had. In your case the first photo should be number 1 or close to number 1 as they might have fired it a few time in the factory to test it.


Where, exactly, would you find this information on the EXIF info? I've never seen anything about "actuations". Are you talking about the actual "file" number or "shot" number?


Some cameras include the total number of actuations in the EXIF data, but not all. Most Nikons do, but I think that most (if not all) Canons don't.
08/04/2005 01:47:14 PM · #39
Originally posted by Kavey:

The politics comment should perhaps have said DEBATE. Too many see debate or discussion as the same as confrontation and aggression. I don't.


Now that I agree with...in all seriousness. My wife and I perceive this completely differently. I don't mind debating/arguing with my family about different theological, sociological and political issues and because we're German we tend to use loud voices when we do so. This bugs the crap out of my wife, who swears that we're 'fighting' (especially because she can't understand all the words...and German syllables are full of staccato).
08/04/2005 01:50:55 PM · #40
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by Kavey:

The politics comment should perhaps have said DEBATE. Too many see debate or discussion as the same as confrontation and aggression. I don't.


Now that I agree with...in all seriousness. My wife and I perceive this completely differently. I don't mind debating/arguing with my family about different theological, sociological and political issues and because we're German we tend to use loud voices when we do so. This bugs the crap out of my wife, who swears that we're 'fighting' (especially because she can't understand all the words...and German syllables are full of staccato).


Where is your wife from? I find a huge cultural difference with this between Europe and the USA? It's a difference in how it's perceived.
08/04/2005 02:06:12 PM · #41
Originally posted by Kavey:

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by Kavey:

The politics comment should perhaps have said DEBATE. Too many see debate or discussion as the same as confrontation and aggression. I don't.


Now that I agree with...in all seriousness. My wife and I perceive this completely differently. I don't mind debating/arguing with my family about different theological, sociological and political issues and because we're German we tend to use loud voices when we do so. This bugs the crap out of my wife, who swears that we're 'fighting' (especially because she can't understand all the words...and German syllables are full of staccato).


Where is your wife from? I find a huge cultural difference with this between Europe and the USA? It's a difference in how it's perceived.


My family and I are German and she is Canadian...I think this explains a lot of the reason for this. I think many people here would think we are ready to murder each other when all we're doing is debating whether the summer is too hot or not.
08/05/2005 10:36:00 AM · #42
Originally posted by tfaust:

I do not intend to drudge up even more discontent... but couldn't it be even remotely possible this was a demo unit and got put back into the manufacturer box? I wouldn't think they had it returned from a customer and then put it back on the shelf. Even if it was a demo unit situation, I'm sure it wouldn't be intentional and mistakes do (obviously) happen.


I am old enough to know that almost nothing is impossible, but we track every product which has a serial number by its serial number and the camera you received the first time came from the delivery truck to our loading dock to a warehouse shelf to a warehouse guy's basket to the shipping department to you. In fact, since it was shipped from our Brooklyn warehouse I can evern say with almost total certainty it was never in our Manhattan store so it was never opened by a sales associate to show to a prospective store customer.

Originally posted by tfaust:

I consider B&H a pro shop ...

Thank you.
08/05/2005 10:39:26 AM · #43
Originally posted by Kavey:

You're right that we'll have to agree to disagree on the issue of charging a customer twice - I'd agree with you if it were a case of replacing an item the customer had themselves damaged or where the customer was at fault in some regard but - this was a case where B&H made the error. Some people don't have skyhigh spending limits on their credit cards and may find it quite a hardship to have to pay an additional $1000 dollars even it's going to be refunded.


That doesn't change the fact that via your method a customer would have two for the price of one with no guarantee to us that we'd ever get one of them back. It also does little to insure a retailer against the pirate who claims a defect in order to get two for the price of one via a retailer's laxity.

Originally posted by Kavey:

I hope the last point you made doesn't imply that you think it's OK to rest on your laurels and to dismiss the importance of each and every transaction?


It does not imply that. Generally, I don't imply.
Originally posted by Kavey:

Believe me, I'm not trying to pick on you but... your tone just doesn't come across as very concerned. It's easy to write an apology, it's not as easy to be genuinely concerned about it.

Perhaps you'd feel better about my tone if you could see me quietly weeping while I type? :-)
08/05/2005 10:49:00 AM · #44
I've bought stuff many many times from B & H and it was the most enjoyable shopping experience, both online and at the big store in Manhattan. Talk about a big "Toys 'R us" for adults, good thing I have a limit on my credit card!

Kudos to Henry Posner for replying to people's concerns about transactions on forums like this.
08/05/2005 10:50:20 AM · #45
Haha, Henry's last post makes me want to shop at B & H right now!
08/05/2005 11:22:28 AM · #46
Sorry to here about your problem Tina. I can only imagine the frustration, waiting excitedly for a new camera, only to be delayed. And having to worry how your problem will be resolved by the retailer. We have all had to fight with a store at one time or another to get what is right.

From the retailers point, they have all been taken advantage of by theives and scams. It is difficult to protect yourself and maintain a good relationship with your customers. I think Henry and B & H are doing a good job.

I can attest to B & H 's security. I ordered my 70-200 2.8 and paid for next day delivery (needed the lens to shoot the Gravity Games). I placed the order @ 9pm. This was not the first time I ordered from B & H, and I have always been happy with both their product and service. Anyway, I was thinking that there was a small chance that the lens would show up the next afternoon, but it would definately arrive in the morning of the following day. At 3pm the next day I received an e-mail saying that my order could not be shipped because the security department @ B and H checked and my address didn't match something. At this point I am furious. I have lived in the same house for 6 years, and recieved orders from B & H at this address before. I used the same debit card before. The state of PA however changed my address to accomidate the 911 system about 2 years ago. I call B & H ready to vent on someone. At this point I'm thinking that I just spent over $1600 for lens that will now arrive after the event that I need it for. As the phone rings I am preparing myself to unleash a verbal assault on whoever answers. 10 min. later (about 3:30pm) I'm off the phone both satisfied and disappointed. My problem was handled so quickly that I never had the chance to vent. My lens arrived the next morning @ 11:30a and I made the event. After the lens arrived, and I could relax, I was happy that B & H had checked the information before shipping. Might prevent someone from ordering on my tab someday.
08/05/2005 11:34:03 AM · #47
Originally posted by henryp:

That doesn't change the fact that via your method a customer would have two for the price of one with no guarantee to us that we'd ever get one of them back. It also does little to insure a retailer against the pirate who claims a defect in order to get two for the price of one via a retailer's laxity.

Given that the courier is taking one back as they hand over the next the customer won't HAVE two cameras in their possession for you to worry about.

And in this case - this was the THIRD delivery - the customer had already returned the camera once and trusted B&H would send her a new one out - she put her trust in them given that they already had her money. I wouldn't expect you to take the risk on regular returns but... this situation strikes me as a little different and further along than that.

Anyway, as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by henryp:

Originally posted by Kavey:

Believe me, I'm not trying to pick on you but... your tone just doesn't come across as very concerned. It's easy to write an apology, it's not as easy to be genuinely concerned about it.

Perhaps you'd feel better about my tone if you could see me quietly weeping while I type? :-)


ROFL, ha ha ha - got a webcam? ;o)

Message edited by author 2005-08-05 11:42:56.
08/05/2005 11:38:15 AM · #48
As most of us her, I also bought an item or two from B&H, but one thing that comes across as odd, to say the least is:

henryp has no camera!!!


08/05/2005 11:40:44 AM · #49
Originally posted by srdanz:

As most of us her, I also bought an item or two from B&H, but one thing that comes across as odd, to say the least is:

henryp has no camera!!!


But he can get his hands on a LOT of them!!!

We've been planning to buy some gear from B&H on an upcoming trip to the US and we likely still will... I'm not actually anti-B&H or anything - I am a stickler for good customer service and, as most people, I have my own ideas of what constitutes good customer service!

From most reports, B&H ARE strong in this area most of the time so I'll keep fingers crossed that they come through OK for us...

:o)

Excuse editing - I can't stand to see my own typos!

Message edited by author 2005-08-05 11:43:57.
08/05/2005 11:41:06 AM · #50
Originally posted by srdanz:

henryp has no camera!!!

That's cuz he gave it to Kavey.
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