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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> 20D - Scratched Sensor - B&H
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08/03/2005 09:42:56 PM · #1
So, I got my 20D a few weeks ago and in the third week I realized it had a scratched sensor. After the 1st use I also noticed the first image number wasn't 1 it was in the 9500's ... but didn't think much of that. It took some troubleshooting to figure out it was actually a scratched sensor, so when I called B&H (on a Sunday) once I discovered the problem, the guy told me I would have to send it back to Canon for repair. I told him I would not accept a 'supposedly brand new' $1300k camera being repaired within the 1st month when it was shipped to me seemingly used. He suggested I call back on Monday when there were supervisors I could talk to.

On that Monday morning I described the situation and was immediately given an RMA number, but I had to pay shipping back to them. They told me they were going to send me a new camera in the old box since I had already cut out the UPC for the rebate. I sent it 2 week ground insured shipping and that cost me $35... when it finally got back to them, they turned around a shipment to me the very next morning - so I was really happy - until I got the package this afternoon.

All they did was take everything out of the old box and put it into a new box and ship it back to me... so I got the same damaged and used camera back!!! ($#$*&#! It's too late to call them, so I will give B&H an opprtunity to help me tomorrow morning, but I just needed to vent since I am really upset about this.
08/03/2005 09:47:26 PM · #2

That's pretty wrong isn't it! It's not hard to give good customer service these days but it just seems to be beyond so many people. I'd be ripping shreads of the little &*^* that packed your camera up and sent it back to you!

08/03/2005 09:49:01 PM · #3
Sorry to hear that. I only ordered once or twice from them, but that just sounds wrong. Believe it or not, Harry the owner of B&H actually posted here. Perhaps you should contact him or your credit card company and just get a refund and buy from somewhere else.

Here is a link to a prior thread with comments by Henry Posner, owner of B&H, like I said, if he is a member here, you should contact him about this directly. Member to member.
//dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=238180

Message edited by author 2005-08-03 22:15:12.
08/03/2005 09:49:49 PM · #4
thats the problem with ordering online. i still prefer to deal with human beings for major purchases.
08/03/2005 09:52:25 PM · #5
What a bunch of dumbasses! Too much weed smoking in the warehouse. They should reimburse you all shipping for such crappy service.
08/03/2005 09:53:37 PM · #6
Originally posted by Beagleboy:

What a bunch of dumbasses! Too much weed smoking in the warehouse. They should reimburse you all shipping for such crappy service.


no, they know exactly what they're doing. they're just hoping you don't.
08/03/2005 09:53:46 PM · #7
I imagine in the end B&H will do right. They have a pretty strong reputation to keep.
08/03/2005 10:01:40 PM · #8
Hmmm, this is disturbing news. I'm just about to spend close to $4000 on new gear and I was planning on buying from B&H. Is this an anomaly? Should I feel safe ordering from there? Or am I better off with Amazon?
08/03/2005 10:04:01 PM · #9
Originally posted by aboutimage:

Hmmm, this is disturbing news. I'm just about to spend close to $4000 on new gear and I was planning on buying from B&H. Is this an anomaly? Should I feel safe ordering from there? Or am I better off with Amazon?


This is an anomaly...they are one of the most reliable outfits...
08/03/2005 10:05:23 PM · #10
Originally posted by doctornick:

Originally posted by aboutimage:

Hmmm, this is disturbing news. I'm just about to spend close to $4000 on new gear and I was planning on buying from B&H. Is this an anomaly? Should I feel safe ordering from there? Or am I better off with Amazon?


This is an anomaly...they are one of the most reliable outfits...


I agree. I have spent big coin with them and they have always given me exemplary service.
08/03/2005 11:02:19 PM · #11
Thanks for the support!! I do believe this is an anomaly - I have spent a lot of money with B&H and always had great service... but this time - it does have me worried about what they will do to fix it.

If I don't get a satisfactory response, I do intend to email Henry about the situation.

Despite this David, I still recommend using B&H for your upcoming purchase.

I'm just really upset after not having my camera for 2 weeks and not knowing how much longer I'll have to go without it ... plus it doesn't help that when I discovered what they did I couldn't call them since it was after hours.
08/03/2005 11:15:27 PM · #12
If I don't get a satisfactory response, I do intend to email Henry about the situation.

I would do it anyhow, just to let him know what happened. People with reputable companies need to hear about these kinds of massive screw ups.
08/03/2005 11:19:05 PM · #13
Wow, I know they have a good reputation and mistakes happen, but this seems way beyond that.

Isn't it illegal (or against some business codes) to sell used merchandise as new? I know Dell got in trouble for selling returns as new computers. What they did was wrong, and they should be bending over backward to make it right.

Suppose the first shipment was a mistake. But sending the same camera right back to you doesn't seem like a mistake.

Even if they make it right, I would report this to someone, at least record it on Resellerratings. If they start to get "dinged" when the don't get away with it, they may be more careful not to do it to someone else, so the bad marks don't start to add up.


08/03/2005 11:25:47 PM · #14
Is there a way to report it to the BBB in the are the company in in? That might help the situation.
08/04/2005 10:34:02 AM · #15
Ok, so I sent an email to Henry this morning, while waiting for customer service to open, more as an FYI than anything else. I have not yet received a reply - but I don't truly expect to.

I called and spoke to a supervisor there and he agreed to send me a new camera UPS next day air and when that one gets delivered I can hand UPS the 'used' camera and they will pay for that shipping as well. Two catches:

1. They have to bill me for the camera they are sending today and will refund that when they receive my 'used' one back. I can understand it, just don't like it.

2. They are taking a (hopefully) new camera out of a Canon box and sticking the camera only into a plain brown box to send to me.

My question: Is there a way to tell if this camera truly is brand new? I feel somewhat unsettled about not getting a camera in factory packaging. I know through the menus you can reset the image count back to 1 and reset any settings back to default. So, I don't know if there is any other way to tell if this would be a used camera.

Although I appreciate B&H's quick response and the above resolution without have to argue, etc... I feel unsettled about how I'm receiving the 'new' camera.

Am I just being gun-shy since getting a used camera in a new box and then the same used camera in another new box?

Anyone have ideas? How would you feel with this resolution?

Message edited by author 2005-08-04 10:35:37.
08/04/2005 10:37:21 AM · #16
Originally posted by tfaust:

...My question: Is there a way to tell if this camera truly is brand new? I feel somewhat unsettled about not getting a camera in factory packaging. I know through the menus you can reset the image count back to 1 and reset any settings back to default. So, I don't know if there is any other way to tell if this would be a used camera....


Take a JPG shot with it then use an EXIF viewer, it will tell you how many actuations the shutter has had. In your case the first photo should be number 1 or close to number 1 as they might have fired it a few time in the factory to test it.
08/04/2005 10:51:27 AM · #17
I have to say that I would object to being billed for this new one, that is just not right. It is their mistake they should be taking the risk!!! I have used KEH a lot and had great service from them. www.keh.com for new and used equipment.

08/04/2005 10:53:12 AM · #18
Originally posted by tfaust:

Ok, so I sent an email to Henry this morning, while waiting for customer service to open, more as an FYI than anything else. I have not yet received a reply - but I don't truly expect to.


Have faith. I get from 10-200 e-mails/day, but it's only 10:40am and your reply+apology is already posted. With it is my reassurance that we erred, apologize for having done so AND for the distress it caused and my further reasurance that a new camera is being shippped today for delivery tomorrow.

An aside -- the first camera you got was BRAND new and was shipped to you exactly as received from Canon USA. New digicams don't show the first frame as #1 if they pick up a frame number from a memory card of yours and some come from the factory with a first frame number in the thousands due to mfg bench testing.
Originally posted by yido:

Believe it or not, Harry the owner of B&H actually posted here.

Thanks for the promotion, but I am not the owner. My title is "Director of Corporate Communications."
Originally posted by Beagleboy:

What a bunch of dumbasses! Too much weed smoking in the warehouse. They should reimburse you all shipping for such crappy service.

Gee, now THAT really elevates the level of dialogue right up to middle school, doesn't it?
Originally posted by nshapiro:

Suppose the first shipment was a mistake. But sending the same camera right back to you doesn't seem like a mistake.

Actually, the first shipment was just fine. When that camera was returned someone in our returns dept erred by letting his hands move faster than his brains. That was the mistake, and we've already apologized for it.
Originally posted by tfaust:

Am I just being gun-shy since getting a used camera in a new box and then the same used camera in another new box?


Under the circumstances your concern is understandable but to set the record straight -- you did NOT get a used camera in a new box initially. And, considering the circumstances I expect the chaps shipping your new camera today will be VERY careful.

Message edited by author 2005-08-04 10:54:38.
08/04/2005 10:54:51 AM · #19
Originally posted by doctornick:


Take a JPG shot with it then use an EXIF viewer, it will tell you how many actuations the shutter has had. In your case the first photo should be number 1 or close to number 1 as they might have fired it a few time in the factory to test it.


Where, exactly, would you find this information on the EXIF info? I've never seen anything about "actuations". Are you talking about the actual "file" number or "shot" number?

Because on my 20D, straight out of the sealed box, the numbering started in the 8000's - it seemed to start numbering according to the CF card that was put in the camera.
08/04/2005 11:04:38 AM · #20
Sorry to hear of your problem, Tina.

Keep calling and keeping complaining. Hopefully you'll get someone sympathetic and get it sorted out. Remember that thread about someone from B&H thanking DPC for saying good things about them? Talk to him. :-)

Edit: Oh I see that was Harry. I'm sure your problem will be solved shortly. :-)

Message edited by author 2005-08-04 11:06:18.
08/04/2005 11:12:18 AM · #21
Originally posted by henryp:

Originally posted by nshapiro:

Suppose the first shipment was a mistake. But sending the same camera right back to you doesn't seem like a mistake.

Actually, the first shipment was just fine. When that camera was returned someone in our returns dept erred by letting his hands move faster than his brains. That was the mistake, and we've already apologized for it.


Actually the first shipment wasn't fine - it had a scratched sensor. Whilst it's conceivable that a brand new camera might have such damage you can surely understand the reason for doubt when combined with an anomalous image number.

Secondly, it should NOT take intervention from the Director of Corporate Communications to resolve an error that should have been sorted out professionally by the regular staff in the first place.

Thirdly, to charge the customer for the product even temporarily when we're talking about the third delivery of their order and when they have already had to pay for one delivery back to B&H out of their own pocket seems to be very poor customer service.

Lastly, are you absolutely sure that it's beyond the realms of possibility that one or more members of staff at the warehouse are "borrowing" warehouse stock, using it and then putting it back onto the shelves? It may be unlikely but it's surely worth looking into.

I agree that there was no call for the comments about weed smoking but I have to say that your apology comes across reluctant at best.

I have heard much good feedback about B&H but one's reputation is only as good as the last thing a potential new customer reads.

Message edited by author 2005-08-04 11:13:09.
08/04/2005 11:27:31 AM · #22
Originally posted by Kavey:

Originally posted by henryp:

Originally posted by nshapiro:

Suppose the first shipment was a mistake. But sending the same camera right back to you doesn't seem like a mistake.

Actually, the first shipment was just fine. When that camera was returned someone in our returns dept erred by letting his hands move faster than his brains. That was the mistake, and we've already apologized for it.


Actually the first shipment wasn't fine - it had a scratched sensor. Whilst it's conceivable that a brand new camera might have such damage you can surely understand the reason for doubt when combined with an anomalous image number.


When I said it was fine, I meant from the perspective of our taking a brand new box containing a brand new product off a shelf and shipping it to the customer. I don't think there's any reason to be pedantic about this.

Originally posted by Kavey:


Secondly, it should NOT take intervention from the Director of Corporate Communications to resolve an error that should have been sorted out professionally by the regular staff in the first place.


It didn't. The problem had already been resolved when I received the customer's e-mail. After replying to the customer I came here and saw the thread. The error had been resolved before I began typing.

Originally posted by Kavey:

Thirdly, to charge the customer for the product even temporarily when we're talking about the third delivery of their order and when they have already had to pay for one delivery back to B&H out of their own pocket seems to be very poor customer service.


We will agree to disagree on this. Considering that we're talking about a $1300.00 product, I doubt there's a retailer anywhere who'd send any customer two for onlyn one paymnent under ANY circumstances.

Originally posted by Kavey:

Lastly, are you absolutely sure that it's beyond the realms of possibility that one or more members of staff at the warehouse are "borrowing" warehouse stock, using it and then putting it back onto the shelves? It may be unlikely but it's surely worth looking into.


Yes. I am. You obviously have NO idea what security is like around here. The White House's got nothing on us in this regard.

Originally posted by Kavey:

I agree that there was no call for the comments about weed smoking but I have to say that your apology comes across reluctant at best.


I am sorry you feel this way.

Originally posted by Kavey:

I have heard much good feedback about B&H but one's reputation is only as good as the last thing a potential new customer reads.


Actually, our reputation is an aggregate of millions of customers shoppingf here over several decades.
08/04/2005 11:30:03 AM · #23
Originally posted by henryp:

Originally posted by tfaust:

Ok, so I sent an email to Henry this morning, while waiting for customer service to open, more as an FYI than anything else. I have not yet received a reply - but I don't truly expect to.


Have faith. I get from 10-200 e-mails/day, but it's only 10:40am and your reply+apology is already posted. With it is my reassurance that we erred, apologize for having done so AND for the distress it caused and my further reasurance that a new camera is being shippped today for delivery tomorrow.

I meant no disrespect - I just never anticipate a reply from large companies.

Also - as stated earlier in this thread I realize this is just a quirk and that stuff like this does not normally happen with B&H. I also stated that B&H was quick to respond and come up with a resolution without me having to argue. I truly and sincerely appreciate that. I was just concerned over what I might get since it wouldn't be in a factory box.

Thank you for explaining that the image numbering could have come from the factory due to bench testing, but it still had a scratch on the sensor and that must have come from the factory as well. When I put both of those together, the camera was (in my opnion) in used condition.

I still truly believe that B&H is the only place to go for photographic equipment and I will still continue to recommend B&H.
08/04/2005 11:41:29 AM · #24
Thanks for the reply Henry. I'm Tina's husband so i know as much as she does about this issue. I'm at work right now, saw this and was compelled to make a few statements.

First: We do have several Canon cameras in our house for various purposes and when we first saw the numbering problem I assumed that the camera picked it up from a CF card as you stated. However, after we discovered the scratch we checked all the other cameras in the house and none were even close to the 9XXX number the "new" 20D started at. All are significantly below that number. Thus it did not pick up that number from one of our cards unless the camera randomly chose a number to start at (in which case we should contact Canon because that would be a malfunction).
Second: If Canon took 9,000+ test shots with this camera in bench testing I think we need to contact Canon's legal department because a camera with over 9,000 clicks on it can not be sold as new. I do not believe Canon would do that, but anything is possible.
Third: Based on the above I would not be so confident this was a brand new camera when it was shipped to us. It is possible it was new or Canon screwed up, but there is clearly potential for B&H to have some wrong doing in this as well.
Fourth: The fact that your warehouse person sent us back the same camera tells us there is clearly the potential for mistakes to happen in your operation.

08/04/2005 11:46:41 AM · #25
while I understand that many people do not have access to "pro" outlets in their area... I really do encourage those who do to go in, pay a little bit more money and get the support, knowledge and service that comes with it.
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