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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> It's politics, not religion...
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05/14/2003 09:26:59 PM · #1
I'm starting this in response to a comment in another thread. The comment was :

"Interesting... some support religion and think we should be open to that but not violence... sounds like talking out of both sides of the head to me... Most of the most terrible violence in the world is because of religions... imagine that..."

Many of the most horrific acts of violence in the last hundred years was completely unrelated to religion, perpetrated by governments that oppressed and tried to abolish all religions (Stalin, Mao, Kamer Rouge).

And (most) all the violence that has been committed in the name of religion (so called Christian Crusades, so called Islamic jihads, etc) have actually been committed for strictly political and economic reasons by people that have tried (mostly successfully) to cover their greed with a thin veneer of religion.

Religion doesn't kill people... People kill people...

05/14/2003 09:59:55 PM · #2
Religion is People

05/15/2003 06:35:39 AM · #3
Originally posted by myqyl:


And (most) all the violence that has been committed in the name of religion (so called Christian Crusades, so called Islamic jihads, etc) have actually been committed for strictly political and economic reasons by people that have tried (mostly successfully) to cover their greed with a thin veneer of religion.

Religion doesn't kill people... People kill people...


It doesn't necessarily matter what the leaders' motives are. If they can get their people to fight in the name of religion, then it is a religious war according to the people, e.g. suicide bombers get a better position in heaven for offing a few of the infidels. What is your point really? Do you really want to defend this kind of action?

Originally posted by Jacko:

Religion is People


True, but people are not necessarily religion, hmm?

05/15/2003 07:07:36 AM · #4
Violence DOES come down to religion - the abolition of religion is still a problem with religion.

Hitler's purging of the Jews, the Irish divide, sectarian violence in Glasgow - all the result of religion. And those are just the few I can think of off-hand.

When it boils down to it - no religion = no problem.

05/15/2003 10:58:33 AM · #5
Originally posted by Antithesis:


It doesn't necessarily matter what the leaders' motives are. If they can get their people to fight in the name of religion, then it is a religious war according to the people, e.g. suicide bombers get a better position in heaven for offing a few of the infidels. What is your point really? Do you really want to defend this kind of action?


I'm defending nothing. Just pointing out that religion is not behind the violence in the world. The Koran says nothing about killing infidels for a better seat in Heaven. That's a line used by people with purely political objectives to incite others to fight for their cause. Islam gets the bad rap for some greedy bastard that misuses and misquotes it to get more power / wealth.

Originally posted by GreggeN:

Violence DOES come down to religion - the abolition of religion is still a problem with religion.


Stalin, Mao, and the Kamer Rouge (which I'm sure I'm misspelling) didn't commit the majority of their atrocities to abolish religion. Just to abolish everyone that disagreed with anything they said.

Originally posted by GreggeN:

Hitler's purging of the Jews, the Irish divide, sectarian violence in Glasgow - all the result of religion. And those are just the few I can think of off-hand..


Hitler's purging of the Jews had nothing to do with religion. It was mainly economic with a large dose of political (need for a scapegoat). He also purged Catholics, Gays, disabled, gypsies, and anyone else that wasn't pure Aryan. The Irish divide is arguably rooted in religion, but is also largely about military occupation. In fact I'm fairly certain the problem started before the Church of England was formed. I'm not familiar with the violence in Glasgow, so I did a search on it. All I could find is a higher then usual domestic violence against women and overly violent soccer fans. I'm not sure which one you are referring to.

Originally posted by GreggeN:

When it boils down to it - no religion = no problem.


This is exactly the attitude that puzzles me. Isn't it more accurate to say "No politics = no problem"? I think No religion = No scapegoat.
05/16/2003 03:17:25 AM · #6
Originally posted by myqyl:


I'm defending nothing. Just pointing out that religion is not behind the violence in the world. The Koran says nothing about killing infidels for a better seat in Heaven. That's a line used by people with purely political objectives to incite others to fight for their cause. Islam gets the bad rap for some greedy bastard that misuses and misquotes it to get more power / wealth.

Religion doesn't kill people... People kill people...


You're right. What it comes down to is uneducated or mis-educated people wrongly using religion to defend their heinous actions. There is nothing at all wrong with religion as long as people don't us it to judge other people or try to push it on them.




05/16/2003 04:42:03 PM · #7
Interesting - when i was first posted to Northern Ireland in the 70's in our first briefing we were told - 'its nothing to do with religion, its political'. Well i found out that was true...
05/19/2003 07:10:42 PM · #8
Originally posted by Jacko:

Religion is People


it's also true that "Politics is People"

somewhere in the middle, there's some truth to the statement that "Religion is Politics"

--------------

people's choice of politics is influenced by their beliefs - same with religion

political groups campaign for people to join in the process to (A) increase their own numbers vs "the opposition", (B) increase their fund-raising potential, (C) help ensure their continued viability - for the most-part, same with religion

and yes, it's true that there are both politicians and people of the cloth that truly care about the people they shepard -- but it's difficult to discount what we see/read/hear every day about about the philandering and corruption in both systems, especially when the instances aren't secret but nobody within the systems seems very concerned about fixing the problems

yes, indeed - one reeks of the other ...
05/20/2003 01:07:21 AM · #9
Originally posted by myqyl:

Religion doesn't kill people... People kill people...


That's true... but religion is the driving force behind it. Religion is used to band people together in a unifying force and it always has for thousands of years. It's always been used as a motivation to band people together as a resitence to "outsiders" who might otherwise invade and conquer.

It all comes down to how "leaders" use religion. If they use it to teach good things, morals, and belief in God, etc. then it's a good thing. But if they use it teach their children how to hate Jews, Western Nations, and non-Muslims, (like Islamic fundamentalists do) then it's a bad thing.


05/31/2003 02:49:52 PM · #10
My mom just forwarded this "joke" to me:

Politics, Anyone?

While walking down the street one day a female head of state is tragically hit by a truck and dies. Her soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.

"Welcome to Heaven," says St. Peter. "Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we're not sure what to do with you."

"No problem, just let me in," says the lady.

"Well, I'd like to but I have orders from higher up. What we'll do is have you spend one day in Hell and one in Heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity."

"Really, I've made up my mind. I want to be in Heaven," says the head of state.

"I'm sorry but we have our rules."

And with that, St. Peter escorts her to the elevator and she goes down, down, down to Hell. The doors open and she finds herself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a club and standing in front of it are all her friends and other politicians who had worked with her, everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet her, hug her, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich at expense of the people. They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster and caviar. Also present is the Devil, who really is a very friendly guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having such a good time that, before she realizes it, it is time to go. Everyone gives her a big hug and waves while the elevator rises. The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on Heaven where St. Peter is waiting for her.

"Now it's time to visit Heaven." So 24 hours pass with the head of state joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and, before she realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns.

"Well then, you've spent a day in Hell and another in Heaven. Now choose your eternity."

She reflects for a minute, then the head of state answers: "Well, I would never have said it, I mean Heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in Hell."

So Saint Peter escorts her to the elevator and she goes down, down, down to Hell. Now the doors of the elevator open and she is in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage. She sees all her friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags. The Devil comes over to her and lays his arm on her neck.

"I don't understand," stammers the head of state. Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and club and we ate lobster and caviar and danced and had a great time. Now all there is a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable.

The Devil looks at her, smiles and says, "Yesterday we were campaigning. Today you voted for us!"
06/01/2003 01:40:35 PM · #11
However this may restore my faith in the electoral system...

hillary-pantsuit.jpg
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