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07/12/2005 03:15:50 PM · #1 |
DPC Mentorship – Rules of the Road
Group: Gig/Concert
NON-MEMBERS PLEASE READ, TOO:
1. If you are not an active member of this mentorship group, please feel free to follow this thread. It is not intended to be exclusionary - we hope everyone can learn from it.
2. If you are not an active member of this mentorship group, please DO NOT post to this thread. If you feel you MUST say something, please PM the mentor or start your own thread.
I (BobsterLobster) would personally like to add that anybody is more than welcome to pm me if you would like to join the group or have any other comments. I do personally think that the 2nd point here is a good idea to keep things manageable.
3. Mentors are volunteers with jobs and/or families. They're human too, and may make mistakes on occasion. If you feel the burning need to criticize them, point out a mistake, or point out your own infinately greater knowledge in they subject they are teaching, please do so in a PM to the mentor, not in this thread.
4. Have fun learning!
P.S. To see updated group information, see aboutimage's profile.
Message edited by author 2005-08-26 11:59:30. |
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07/12/2005 03:25:36 PM · #2 |
Hi guys, welcome aboard!
To get things started, could we all discuss what equipment we're all using? The combination of low-light and restrictions on using tripods makes quite a demand on the gear that we use to shoot gigs, so it will be useful to know what we're working with. Using P&Ss is okay in this group, you will just have to work extra hard!
I use a Minolta 7D, which I bought because of it's built in IS which helps me in low-light conditions. My lenses are: 12-24mm Sigma, 24-200mm Tokina, 50mm F1.7 Minolta, 105mm macro Sigma, 75-300mm Minolta.
For my gig photography, I REALLY need some lenses such as 70-200mm F2.8, and these will be in my camera bag very soon I hope. However, I always pride myself on pushing myself with whatever limited equipment I have (look at my portfolio to see all the photos taken with a Pentax Optio S), and I will help you all to get the very best shots with WHATEVER equipment you have. I also regularly use an external Sunpak 383 flash which I hold in my left hand while I hold the camera in my right. |
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07/12/2005 03:29:16 PM · #3 |
Hey, thanks for listing me in.
I use Canon 10D with 17-40 F4L, 50mm F1.8, 100mm F2.8 and 75-300 F4-5.6 lenses. I am planning to upgrade my 75-300 to 20-200 F4L lens ( but i think even that wouldn't be as good as the 2.8 lens you suggested for gigs).
Will the 100mm 2.8 work ? or do I need to always have much more zoom capabilities ?
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07/12/2005 03:55:53 PM · #4 |
| NikonD70 with 2 plain ass kit lenses AF NIKKOR 28-80mm F3.3-5.6 and AF NIKKOR 70-300mm F4-5.6 no flash as of yet cause I have been shopping around for on that is best. I usually do all my work with natural ambient lighting. |
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07/12/2005 04:04:33 PM · #5 |
Hi, I look forward to this...
Canon 300D
80-200 f/2.8L (my baby)
16-35 f/2.8L (not my baby...an annoying cousin, perhaps)
50mm f/1.8 (my lover)
No flash
No grip
Upgrading soon to 20d w/ grip (maybe wait until end of year and hope for price drop) and will get a flash soon too (grudgingly, I prefer natural light).
Message edited by author 2005-07-12 16:06:08.
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07/12/2005 04:30:42 PM · #6 |
...
Olympus D-600L 1.3 megapixel point and shoot.
No lenses, but a magnifying glass works nice for macros. :-)
My neighbour has a nice Minolta-somethingrather and would probably let me borrow it. It's nothing fancy but definatly better for concert photography than mine because I believe it has manual settings. Of course, I'd have to talk to my neighbour- she's pretty hip though. |
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07/12/2005 04:56:49 PM · #7 |
I wish I was going to that Dinosaur Jr. concert this week.
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07/12/2005 05:26:11 PM · #8 |
Hi, good to be joining you all and thank you to Bob for mentoring this.
My Kit is:
28-75mm F2.8 Tamron XR di
50mm Canon F1.8
70-200mm F4L Canon
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07/12/2005 06:03:22 PM · #9 |
| I'll give it another day for everyone to respond, but it's interesting how good everyone's kit is... only one p&s so far! Joey, do you have a 35mm SLR? ISO3200 b&w film is surprisingly grain free... |
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07/12/2005 07:56:19 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Joey, do you have a 35mm SLR? ISO3200 b&w film is surprisingly grain free... |
Nope, I wish! |
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07/12/2005 10:57:29 PM · #11 |
Hi everyone. I am a p/s person. G6. Can go up to iso 400. It's a pretty good low light camera if you don't mind not focusing and noise. I have a sigma super500dg flash that I can bounce and slave off the on camera flash if needed, it can also be zoomed out if I'm standing towards the back of the crowd. The location I have picked out for my practice is pretty intimate sizewise so I don't think I'll need a lot of flash. My telephoto thingy is on it's way and hopefully it won't cut a lot of light out of the lens.
Thanks for including me. |
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07/13/2005 02:33:05 AM · #12 |
Hiya peeps :)
Inside my bag (Lowepro Orion Trekker) is a Nikon D70, SB600 Flash, Nikon 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5, Nikon 70-210mm f/4-5.6, Tamron 28-200 f/3.8-5.6, Nikon 50mm f/1.8, Olympus TCON17 teleconverter, macro stuff (close up filters, reversing rings, etc), lighting stuff (reflector, diffusers etc) and other stuff (cleaning, batteries, cards). Attached to the bottom is a Velbon 347E tripod and on the side is a pouch with my Panasonic FZ2 + bits.
I'm about to get my hands on a couple more lenses (hopefully), these are a Sigma 28-70 f/2.8 and a Sigma 70-210 f/2.8 APO.
I've done some photography for a theatre company (pics on my website), when doing the shoot I tried with the flash (as per the pro that was also on the shoot) but really did not like the results of the test images, so I switched to using the 50mm (and the TCON17) and dropping the flash altogether. I was much happier with the results (as were the theatre company - 3 jobs followed).
I tend to shout quite a bit about using the TCON17, most SLR users dismiss this piece of kit and instead use rear fitting teleconverters, the advantages of the TCON17 is that it's front mounting (don't have to remove lens), due to it's large front element there is no light lost (my 50mm f/1.8 becomes an 85mm f/1.8), it's inexpensive and it's relatively lightweight. It has a 55mm thread (plastic, so I use an old filter that lost it's glass as a permanent fixture) and even when using it on my 70-210 (62mm thread, step-down ring used) there is no vignetting (although it is unusable with the Tamron 28-200). As the 50mm f/1.8 is so inexpensive and useful for low light, I do recommend the TCON17 as a money saving way to get that extra reach without hurting the pocket.
Cheers :)
Darren
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07/13/2005 07:24:27 AM · #13 |
Hi guys,
I'm going to sum up everybody's equipment in this thread, and this evening (UK time) we'll talk about how to get the best out of it.
colda: Nikon D70, SB600 Flash, 18-70mm, 70-210mm (4-5.6), Tamron 28-200mm, 50mm 1.8, TCON17.
gaurawa: Canon 10D, 17-40mm 4L, 50mm1.8, 100mm 2.8, 75-300mm
Joey Lawrence: Olympus D-600L
pcody: Canon PowerShot G6, Raynox2.2, Sigma Super500dg Flash
Fleximus: Canon 300D, Tamron 28-75mm 2.8, 50mm 1.8, 70-200mm 4L
thatcloudthere: Canon 300D, 80-200 2.8L, 16-35 2.8L, 50mm 1.8
NightShy: Canon 20D, 18-55mm, 75-300mm
singe: Canon 300D, Canon Powershot A85
Anni: Nikon D70, 28-80mm, 70-300mm.
Rooster: Canon 300D, 18-55mm, 200mm 2.8, Sigma 105mm macro 2.8, 50mm 1.8, Sigma 28-105mm, Speedlite 420 EX
Message edited by author 2005-08-04 14:55:12. |
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07/13/2005 08:46:47 AM · #14 |
| My teleconverter is a raynox2.2 It's in the mail, really, I promise. |
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07/13/2005 09:21:09 AM · #15 |
| I just picked up a telescoping mono-pod from wolf camera for around 25 bucks.. a quantaray, seems to work ok. |
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07/13/2005 11:43:24 AM · #16 |
Sweetness! I'm glad I made the cut! I've had to do some creative post editing to deal with some of the noisey, dark shots I've taken at concerts/gigs. I SUPER excited to be learning from Bob & everyone else in the group on how to get the most bang out of the equipment I have. Speaking of which, here goes:
Canon 300D Rebel
(kit lens) 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 (I really don't use this lens anymore.
Instead, I use...) Sigman 25-105mm F/2.8-4.0
Canon 200mm Telephoto f/2.8 USM
Sigma 105 mm f/2.8 Macro
Canon 50mm f/1.8
Canon Speedlite 420 EX
that's it! I've mostly used the Sigma 25-105mm & the 50mm (bc of the lower f stops) to shoot gigs.
Getting really excited...
:)
Peace(here's the link to the sigma lens)
Message edited by author 2005-07-15 00:19:17. |
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07/13/2005 02:13:33 PM · #17 |
Hi Rooster,
I've never come across a Sigma 22-200mm lens... f2.8 implies it's fixed aperture... sounds like a lens that everybody would kill for if it was any good. I've Googled it and not come up with anything, can you post a link to the lens specs somewhere?
BTW, may I suggest that everyone modifies this thread settings so they can watch it or have email alerts when it's updated? |
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07/13/2005 02:21:00 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
BTW, may I suggest that everyone modifies this thread settings so they can watch it or have email alerts when it's updated? |
done, 'watched' and 'emailed' :)
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07/13/2005 02:58:48 PM · #19 |
I am going for the 50cent and Eminem concert next tuesday. I will have to check which tickets I have ( how far am I from stage ).
My question is do they allow taking photos or I need to have something special ?
this is the concert I am talking about
Anger management tour 3
What should I carry with me ? 75-300mm ? |
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07/13/2005 03:20:05 PM · #20 |
cool...getting updates emailed. This is a really cool thing thanks so much bob..:)
Message edited by author 2005-07-13 15:22:49. |
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07/13/2005 03:22:21 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by gaurawa:
I am going for the 50cent and Eminem concert next tuesday. I will have to check which tickets I have ( how far am I from stage ).
My question is do they allow taking photos or I need to have something special ?
this is the concert I am talking about
Anger management tour 3
What should I carry with me ? 75-300mm ? |
I saw eminem way back in the day...when he was touring with limp biskit and pappa roach. It was a great show, but my taste has matured a bit since then. |
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07/13/2005 03:52:04 PM · #22 |
Okay, I'm going to comment on equipment and give this thread some direction!
What I would like to do is get people to start building up their portfolio with lots of gig photos taken at small local venues before we start trying to get into the larger big-name concerts. Another great source of photos for the beginner gig photographer is large festivals with great lighting... choose the less popular performers and shots taken right at the barrier will be great for your portfolio.
For the moment, I'd like to set everyone the assignment of finding some low-key small music venues near where you live to get our project started.
The style of music doesn't matter... in fact you should try and take photos of as many different styles of music as you can. When you go pro, it's a good idea to focus on the music that you personally enjoy but as a beginner it's good to expand your horizons.
Find out who promotes the gigs in your local pubs/bars/etc, contact them and ask if they'll give you free admission in return for photos they can use to promote their business. Be friendly and low-key though... be upfront about the fact that you're building your portfolio and you're experimenting and increasing your experience. Many people at this end of the music business (well, at any end!) are incredibly tight and won't be interested. Stay friendly, and be prepared to spend a bit of money on getting into the venue for a few weeks until you have a better portfolio and can target someone else. You might be able to make a bit of money from the bands, but don't count on it... it's like getting blood out of a stone and will take superhuman amounts of time and effort. Don't be tempted to get ambitious and target the larger venues near you... we specifically want 'dives' to build up technique and confidence. You can afford to make mistakes in places like these.
I recommend targeting a small venue rather than a band at this stage, as I believe your photography will grow faster if you can see how you get better over time under the same conditions. I believe it's important to take it slowly and have patience... if you tour with a band you'll potentially be meeting some important people with influence before you're ready. It might take you a fair bit of effort to track down the right person to speak to at the venue... you MUST persevere. Most of the skill in being a gig photographer comes in the vast amounts of time spent on the phone, emailing and metaphorically knocking on doors. You make all this happen, and it rarely happens effortlessly. You must be passionate enough to follow it all through.
Try to find a venue though that has at least some kind of lighting rig. A pub/bar/club with no lighting at all should be avoided if possible.
One REALLY important tip... always have ear plugs. You can buy them very cheaply and can save you from days/weeks of ringing ears. You'll be surprised how clear the music is anyway. This can work to your advantage in some situations... I've managed to get angles other photographers wouldn't go anywhere near (right next to bass bins) with ear plugs. This applies to ANY style of music, if amplifiers/PA is being used. Look after your ears folks!
There's some very exciting lenses and equipment in this thread... the 70-200mm F2.8 lens is the lens of choice when you're in a photographer's pit with a big-name band in front of you, it becomes a bit less useful in a cramped local venue. For these conditions, wide-angle lenses become more useful and the 50mm 1.7/1.8 really comes into it's own. Start practicing changing lenses by yourself as quickly and smoothly as you can. Don't leave lenses anywhere where beer might be spilled on them!
It's highly rare that flash will be forbidden in a small venue (but please check! Also check with the band), so there is usually no reason not to use it if you can. However, you should always let in loads of ambient light with the flash... the impression you're after is a natural light shot with just enough flash to freeze the action. We'll talk more about this issue later! On a big stage with a colossal lighting rig, most lenses will cope with available light if using reasonably high ISOs, but in most small venues you will struggle with most lenses. Especially with most of the DSLRs mentioned in this thread which will struggle at high ISOs. Flash should never be used direct, you may get away with it if you use a good diffuser. I prefer to bounce flash off ceilings and walls, and you can get nice effects if they are colours other than white. As I mentioned before, I use the flash in my left hand connected to my camera by a PC sync cord. You may want to experiment with this technique... if your camera doesn't have a sync socket you can buy an adapter for your hotshoe. This is essential if you have a flash that doesn't bounce/swivel. I also change between portrait/landscape orientations a lot, and this would drive me crazy if my flash was mounted on the camera. Be prepared for tired hands though! If you don't have external flash, onboard will be okay, just make sure you adjust it to the minimum possible power. I've not tried it, but you may want to experiment with placing semi-transparent materials in front of your onboard flash.
Exposure at gigs is a huge topic that we will spend loads more time on... most people like to use spot metering as lights can really play around with the camera's metering. I personally prefer to use manual settings and leave everything as it is for most of the gig which I find to work on 99% of occasions. If the lighting is flashing and wildly unpredictable, metering will not be quick enough to keep up anyway. Keep checking your histograms when you have a quick second (but don't get distracted by the shots!) and make sure you leave some leeway in your highlights. Through experience, you'll be able to adjust the shutter speeds as the lighting changes throughout a gig and check the histograms every now and then just to make sure.
Don't be shy about getting to the front... it can be quite rowdy at some small gigs and you might need to assert your right to be there. Don't be agressive or have a bad attitude though, the fact that people see you have a DSLR (sorry P&Sers!) will usually cut you some slack. Things I have done before when it's been REALLY packed are actually get up on stage with the musicians (I try and anticipate if I need to do this and ask them beforehand if it's okay), and stood on the speakers (but not amplifiers! I wouldn't be impressed if you stood on my amp!). Always keep your antennae tuned, and be ready to back down from anything that might be inappropriate or annoying! If you're at the front of the crowd, show consideration by crouching down or by not staying still for too long.
Camera settings: It is imperative that saturation is set to minimum. This can help avoid loss of detail in your shot when one colour is used by the lighting system such as deep red. Setting contrast to minimum will also help to avoid this common gig-photography pitfall.
ISOs I'd suggest that DSLR users stick to around ISO 400/800 as the 300D and 70D are not renowned for low noise levels. Although we're using flash, we still want ambient light and want to keep the shutter speeds down so we don't want to go too low either. I'd but the G6 on ISO200. I highly recommend using NeatImage to remove some of the noise... you won't want to use it ALL the time but at least become acquainted with it so you can make the decision. We'll discuss this more. Also, converting to b&w using only the red or green channel is a great way of reducing noise.
Composition: Less is more! Always try to compose your shots so that there are as few background (or foreground) distracting elements as possible. Shoot singers from the side, so that the microphone doesn't get in the way of their face. Although you will want SOME shots of the whole band, this is incredibly tricky to pull off in small venues as there will be so much clutter in your shot... it's usually better to focus on all the individual members. Try to include ALL the band members, drummers and bass players can be neglected here. Get plenty of shots of the performer at the edge of the shot looking into an empty frame. Especially if you're going for a head and shoulders shot. Tele/tele zoom lenses can be great for head shots but bear in mind the dof will be very unforgiving. Wide-angles can be very effective if shot from somewhere near the subject's foot. Flash fall-out near the edges won't matter so much under these conditions. The most important thing I can say about gig photography composition is that there are usually only a very few special moments during a gig that you need to capture. The rest of the time, you're practicing for those moments. You won't know what they are until they happen, but you immediately recognise the chemistry in those moments. It might be a glance between 2 band members, it might be a particular expression during an emotive part of one song, it might be when a band member suddenly jumps in the air or makes a gesture, but you must be ready for these moments! I see way too many gig photos that could have been taken at ANY point that evening. Your job is to capture that SPECIAL moment that only happened once. Let your heart be guided by this (this is why pros only shoot music they like)... feel that you are PART of the band, feel the rhythm, feel the adrenaline, empathise with them all and you'll know when those special moments are about to kick off.
A huge tip is to be ready to capture all the band dynamics IN-BETWEEN songs. This is when many performers suddenly come alive and show their natural selves. Don't use that time to chimp! And be alert for loads of shots of the audience. If you have a good wide angle, try and get good shots of the band AND the audience.
Have a chat with the bands, see if any of them have time for a quick photo session somewhere not too far from the venue. It helps if you've already thought about this and know the area fairly well. Your photo could end up on a CD cover. This is a huge topic, so we'll cover it more later.
Phew, I'll leave it there for now, but I could go on forever!
Feel free to discuss any issues raised in this post, and get yourselves out there! Hopefully we'll have lots of photos by the end of the weekend?
Joey, I'll think of some extra advice for you as soon as I have a bit more time!
Bob
Message edited by author 2005-07-13 16:05:45. |
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07/13/2005 03:56:03 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by gaurawa:
I am going for the 50cent and Eminem concert next tuesday. I will have to check which tickets I have ( how far am I from stage ).
My question is do they allow taking photos or I need to have something special ?
this is the concert I am talking about
Anger management tour 3
What should I carry with me ? 75-300mm ? |
To be absolutely honest, I would leave the camera at home and bring a P&S. Unless you're right against the front barrier you're going to have a hell of a time getting good photos, and there's a high chance you'll be turned away when you go in as you're not allowed to take photos. You'll then have to leave the camera in the car which I'm not fond of doing. Just go and have a good time! |
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07/13/2005 04:10:11 PM · #24 |
Sounds great!
Questions:
When you say set contrast and saturation to minimum in camera...I always have everything set to 0 (Adobe RGB)...are you suggesting I set it to -2?
Also, (I know this is jumping the gun, but) what is the market like for concert/band photographers right now? Do you find it tough out there? What are your best venues for sales? Just curious...
One more thing...would you mind sharing a few favourite photos that you've taken as well as a few 'perfect' photos that others have taken? What are some famous 'band/concert' photos that we could study?
If you feel I'm jumping the gun too much with these questions, let me know!
Unfortunately, I won't be able to shoot this weekend...but I'll catch up!
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07/13/2005 04:14:11 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by gaurawa:
Will the 100mm 2.8 work ? or do I need to always have much more zoom capabilities ? |
This lens is so sharp, it would be a shame not to use it! You'll be quite limited in when it's appropriate though, if you use it enough times you'll be able to anticipate when it will work well for you. The problem with it in a gig environment is that the af speed is quite slow, so it will be hard to use it on a performer who is quite animated. Use it on someone who doesn't move a lot and you should be fine! I wouldn't leave it for long on my camera during a gig though, I'd be worried about the shots I might be missing. |
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