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06/08/2005 05:13:46 PM · #1 |
OK, as you know if you have voted on any challenge, my photos look like, well, bad photos. Today I have discovered what at least part of my problem is. I never processed images for the web before this. I always processed them for the profile I have set up for the printer I use to make prints (a Canon professional photo printer) which is significantly differnt (as I am sure you all know). But to submit a photo for viewing/judging here requires different steps. Or perhaps the same steps, but in a different order or applied multiple times depending on where you are in the process.
After seeing my Construction submission on the page here it looked like crap. The image before web processing was crisp and clear and looked great. But on the preview page it looks, well, like what my dog leaves in the yard when he decides to do his stuff.
So what I am curious to know is, since I now have to learn a whole new workflow, or at least a new partial workflow - perhaps a branch on the decision tree - is what is important to do FIRST and a definite no no to do last? As in should you ALWAYS do a particular step first/last/again after a previous step when processing for the web? It is only processing for the web I am interested in.
Thx in advance for any shared info, advice, tips, etc.
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06/08/2005 05:28:13 PM · #2 |
What software do you have?
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06/08/2005 05:47:45 PM · #3 |
Make sure you convert the profile to sRGB before uploading to the web.
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06/08/2005 06:00:05 PM · #4 |
Assuming you have photoshop, something like this is a basic workflow:
1. Open image, immediately save-as a .psd document to a new filename
2. be sure colorspace is set to sRGB
3. use image/adjustments/autolevel to see what it looks like, then undo
4. image/adjustments/auto colorbalance to see what it looks like, then undo
5. new adjustment layer, levels or curves (curves are better, levels are easier and work ok for the average image) is your first adjustment; always do it before color tweaking because it will affect the color
6. select the duplicate layer again, new adjustment layer, hue/saturation or selective color (sometimes you'll use both, separate layers)
7. save image
8. resize
9. sharpen with USM and then fade sharpen from the edit menu (oversharpen a little and fade back so it looks right)
10. add border if using one
11. save for web
That's a very basic workflow. It doesn't take into account selections, advanced editing layers and modes, shadow/highlight balancing, filters, any of that. Main thing is, levels/contrast adjustments before color adjustments, sharpening last step and image-size specific.
On images where the editing is unconstrained by a ruleset, I am likely to have as many as 10-15 layers at some point int he workflow, and be juggling and balancing them all.
Robt.
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06/08/2005 06:07:11 PM · #5 |
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06/08/2005 06:08:19 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Assuming you have photoshop, something like this is a basic workflow:
1. Open image, immediately save-as a .psd document to a new filename
2. be sure colorspace is set to sRGB
3. use image/adjustments/autolevel to see what it looks like, then undo
4. image/adjustments/auto colorbalance to see what it looks like, then undo
5. new adjustment layer, levels or curves (curves are better, levels are easier and work ok for the average image) is your first adjustment; always do it before color tweaking because it will affect the color
6. select the duplicate layer again, new adjustment layer, hue/saturation or selective color (sometimes you'll use both, separate layers)
7. save image
8. resize
9. sharpen with USM and then fade sharpen from the edit menu (oversharpen a little and fade back so it looks right)
10. add border if using one
11. save for web
That's a very basic workflow. It doesn't take into account selections, advanced editing layers and modes, shadow/highlight balancing, filters, any of that. Main thing is, levels/contrast adjustments before color adjustments, sharpening last step and image-size specific.
On images where the editing is unconstrained by a ruleset, I am likely to have as many as 10-15 layers at some point int he workflow, and be juggling and balancing them all.
Robt. |
Robt, just curious - at what point would you do the shadow/highlight adjustments? I tend to do them very early on (often before curves/levels), but reading your basic workflow I am wondering if I should move them later. Any thoughts?
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06/08/2005 06:11:53 PM · #7 |
shadow/highlight adjustments are the ultimate extension of levels. I do them first if I am doing them at all. I use PS 7.0 so I use the cntrl-alt-tilde approach, average the image out to a basic range, then flatten it and proceed as above.
Robt.
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06/08/2005 06:48:05 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Assuming you have photoshop, something like this is a basic workflow:
9. sharpen with USM and then fade sharpen from the edit menu (oversharpen a little and fade back so it looks right)
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Hi Robt. -- quick question if you please. What's the advantage of oversharpening and then fading vs. sharpening (using USM) until it looks "right" as seen in the preview? I figure there must be something or YOU wouldn't be doing it!
thanks,
Roland
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06/08/2005 06:50:13 PM · #9 |
Bear_music
I have been doing this wrong for a long time. I am looking forward, with the help of my wife, tring your method this evening.
Thanks for the information. |
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06/08/2005 06:52:45 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by justine:
What software do you have? |
Installed on the machine I use for photo processing is:
PhotoImpact 10 (many plugins, filters, etc.)
PhotoShop Elements 2 (as installed from the CD that came with the Canon 20D)
Canon EOS Raw Editor (whatever came with the 20D (cannot use the Digital Professional or whatever it is since it is not an XP machine)
NeatImage
The rest of the stuff I have is not relevant as it does not do anything this stuff does.
What really prompted this is my construction submission. I saw a difference in the images before but always attributed it to the monitor even though it is characterized. I have the res up so high that everything looks small and defects are not noticeable as much. But I recently lowered the res on the monitor and saw a dramatic difference in the original image and the submitted image (I am getting old I guess and hate wearing glasses of any kind since I don't need them to see per se, but age has its affects) and could not understand why. So investigation brought me to the conclusion that my workflow for print image does not produce web acceptable images. And that is what I discovered today through the tutorial I was following. It performed a step after one I performed instead of before as I did. When I reversed that order in my work flow for the web, the image, as seen on a preview page here, was very different - better.
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06/08/2005 07:07:45 PM · #11 |
I would like to thank Robt. for sharing again.. I know he listed out a more thorough workflow a while back... I just edityed a few pics using his outline, and am VERY happy with the results. More so than I had been doing it the haphazard way I was before... MUCH. Thanks again Robt.
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06/09/2005 05:29:51 PM · #12 |
Yes thank you all for the responses. Not many, but enough. I don't use PS but I do know the equivalents in PI and I can see where a few steps I am performing need to be done differently...or at least in a different order.
I tried a new workflow based on what was here and the info I gleaned from the tut I was looking at yesterday and wish I could resubmit my construction entry.
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06/09/2005 09:26:46 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by RolandB:
Originally posted by bear_music:
Assuming you have photoshop, something like this is a basic workflow:
9. sharpen with USM and then fade sharpen from the edit menu (oversharpen a little and fade back so it looks right)
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Hi Robt. -- quick question if you please. What's the advantage of oversharpening and then fading vs. sharpening (using USM) until it looks "right" as seen in the preview? I figure there must be something or YOU wouldn't be doing it!
thanks,
Roland |
It's easier to control. You can fine-tune it if it's on its own layer. Sometimes I edit in daylight and find at night that it's too sharp, for example; easy to fade the layer back a bit. The problem with trying to get it exactly right when you sharpen in one pass is that yoiu're stuck with whatever magnification you're at when you open that dialogue box, and it's a pain in the keister to realize it's not quite right and have to step back to NO sharpening and start over again.
In general, in any process whatsoever, it's easier to find the limit by going past it and then backtracking. When you're constantly creeping up on perfection, as it were, you're never quite sure you've actually attained it. So I tend to oversaturate, oversharpen, over-whatever, and then back off by fading the effect up and down at various magnifications until I'm satisfied.
Robt.
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06/09/2005 11:02:29 PM · #14 |
The exact workflow will vary depending on your camera and its settings.
I had to change what i did when i got my Rebel from what i did with my Fuji S602.
My current workflow...for JPG images
-1.neatimage if it needs it.
1.Open pic, make copy to work on
2.crop
3.duplicate the background layer and work on it, not the original BG
4.levels to make sure everything is OK. Sometimes Master, sometimes each color channel. many times no adjustment is needed.
4a. if needed, adjust colors here. My rebel seems OK, my fuji (all fuji S602) have a green cast to them.
5. Hue/Sat adjustments if any
6.Curves - i usually bump the mids up and the lows down, increases contrast. save a copy at this point as PSD.
7.resize
8. flatten image
9. USM - the amount and radius depends on the size of the pic in pixels, and what you are publishing too (web or print) and what is in the pic (\level of details, etc). Most pics i do 80%, .9, 1 Somtimes up to 180% and radius .6 or .7 (this is one thing that is DRASTICALLY different than with my Fuji)
9. Save for Web
If the pic looks hazy, then i do a USM of 30%, radius 60, and 1 around step 4
If i am going to desat an image, then add that step of course, usually channels but sometimes just desat on Hue/Sat layer
Occasionally I use Filter-Other-Higpass on a layer after flattening, and then Blend Mode - soft light or hard light and adjust opacity instead of USM (not legal for basic editing though)
Message edited by author 2005-06-09 23:04:27.
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06/13/2005 01:00:46 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by RolandB:
Hi Robt. -- quick question if you please. What's the advantage of oversharpening and then fading vs. sharpening (using USM) until it looks "right" as seen in the preview? I figure there must be something or YOU wouldn't be doing it!
thanks,
Roland
originally posted by bear-music:
It's easier to control. You can fine-tune it if it's on its own layer. Sometimes I edit in daylight and find at night that it's too sharp, for example; easy to fade the layer back a bit. The problem with trying to get it exactly right when you sharpen in one pass is that yoiu're stuck with whatever magnification you're at when you open that dialogue box, and it's a pain in the keister to realize it's not quite right and have to step back to NO sharpening and start over again.
In general, in any process whatsoever, it's easier to find the limit by going past it and then backtracking. When you're constantly creeping up on perfection, as it were, you're never quite sure you've actually attained it. So I tend to oversaturate, oversharpen, over-whatever, and then back off by fading the effect up and down at various magnifications until I'm satisfied.
Robt. |
Thanks for your detailed reply. That's how I shall approach it from now on!
Roland
Message edited by author 2005-06-13 13:07:42. |
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