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09/26/2002 07:11:11 PM · #1
The following is a draft of a rules revision we are considering. The document is intended to maintain the current spirit of the rules, with the focus on photography and limited editing allowed to help provide a level playing field. Please note this document is for discussion only and is not official. For reference, new sections are underlined and sections to be delered are in <strike>strikeout</strike>.

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NOTE: THE FOLLOWING IS A DRAFT AND IS FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY. THIS DOCUMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT A RULES UPDATE.THE OFFICIAL RULES CURRENTLY IN EFFECT ARE AT //www.dpchallenge.com/help_rules.asp.
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RULES


Photograph Submission
All photographs must be taken with a digital camera -- scanned photographs from film cameras are not allowed.


Submission Format
Photographs must be follow these standards for submission:


Dimension: <strike>640x480 / 480x640 or 640x427 / 427x640 -- No borders or padding. </strike>No longer than 640 pixels in either dimension.
Exposure Date: <strike>If specified, t</strike>The photo must be taken within the given dates.
File format: JPEG, no larger than 150 kb.
Borders/padding: A solid, uniformly-colored border or background may be added to one or more sides of the photo, so long as this does not cause it to exceed the overall size limits. No text or other artwork may be added.


Image Modifications

Post-shot Adjustments may be made to your image in a photo editing program, so long as the modification is applied to the whole image. This includes levels, b&w conversion, hue/saturation, sizing/rotating, curves and cropping<strike>, etc</strike> (or their non-Photoshop equivalents). The use of certain editing and adjustment tools is restricted or prohibited as outlined below.


Filters
<strike>however, no filters (or non-Photoshop equivalent) may be be applied to your image with the exception of sharpen and despeckle the two of which are allowed.</strike> The use of filters (or non-Photoshop equivalent) is strictly limited. Any filter or stand-alone utility designed and used to preserve the integrity of the image and/or reduce the effects of noise, scratches, etc, are permitted. These include but are not limited to the Sharpen, Unsharp Mask, and Dust & Scratches filters, and standalone image cleanup utilities such as NeatImage. However, no effects filters may be applied to your image, with the exception of Noise and Gaussian blur, the two of which are allowed. Any filter permitted by this rule must be applied uniformly to the entire image. Selective application of the filter is prohibited.


Spot-editing
Absolutely no spot-editing is allowed. The use of any type of selection tool is prohibited except to select a rectangular area for cropping. Adding text to the image via software is prohibited.


Layers
Only adjustment layers may be used, and the layer must be applied in normal mode. All other types of layers and all other blending methods (modes) are prohibited. Layers may not be used to apply a prohibited effect to an image.



Challenge Rules
If the validity of your submitted photograph comes into question, you may be asked to submit your original, unmodified photograph and steps to recreate your submitted photograph from your original photograph to be reviewed by the DPChallenge staff -- so keep a copy of your original! This original photograph must contain valid, unaltered EXIF data -- the information stored by your camera, including the date and time of exposure, camera settings, etc. To learn more about EXIF, click here. If you are unable to produce your original photo under these circumstances, your photograph will be disqualified.

A photograph may only be used in one challenge, even if it is cropped or altered differently to fit another challenge. Duplicate photos will be disqualified.

A person may only hold one DPChallenge account and may submit only one photograph per challenge. He will not be able to vote on his own image.


Subject Matter
Submissions may not promote hatred towards any group of people or single person. Blatantly offensive and lewd photographs will not be tolerated. Nudity is allowed, but pornography is not. Use your good judgement here -- if it's going to get us kicked off our host, it will be disqualified. Quoting a wise professor, "I don't know what IT is, but I know IT when I see IT."


Artwork

Literal photographic representations of the entirety of existing works of art (including your own) are not considered acceptable submissions, however creative depictions or interpretations are permissible. This includes, but is not limited to paintings, sculptures, photographs, drawings, and computer artwork.


Copyrights
The photograph must be submitted by the original photographer, and that photographer must hold the copyright to any and all submissions to DPChallenge.

It is the photographer's responsibility to obtain all necessary permissions for his/her submission, including copyrights and model releases if necessary.



Disqualification
<strike>Your submission should follow the criteria for the challenge topic. If the challenge topic requires that a specific technique or image style be used, photographs not following that technique may be disqualified. Your fellow photographers</strike>Any registered user may recommend <strike>your</strike> a submission for disqualification if <strike>they</strike> he or she feels <strike>your</strike> that submission has violated a rule<strike> or hasn't met the challenge requirements</strike>.

In order to allow sufficient time for research, disqualification requests should be submitted as soon as the voter becomes aware of a potential rule violation. Disqualification requests should be submitted during the voting period whenever possible but will be accepted up to seven days after the results of the challenge to which the photo was entered are posted. Once the results of a challenge have been posted for seven days, those results are final and permanent.

Disqualifications are voted on by a panel of site moderators. These moderators are chosen for their outstanding participation on the site. Upon suggestion by site users, and on a majority vote by the site moderators, a photograph may be disqualified from the challenge.


Voting
Each challenge is open for voting for exactly seven days. Users should rate each and every photograph in the challenge on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being a perfect photograph). At the end of the week, the photograph holding the greatest average of votes will be declared the winner of that challenge. Second and third place photographs will also be recognized.

While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly.

Users must vote on at least 20% of the entries in order to have their votes counted towards the averages. Until a user votes for 20% of the images in a challenge, his votes are ignored. Voting patterns are also autmatically monitored. Users whose vote patterns suggest an intent to unfairly disrupt the system will have their votes ignored.

If you feel a photograph has violated the site rules, you may click the "Recommend Disqualification for this Picture" link and enter your reason why. You should then vote on the photo as if the rule was not broken, and leave the determination up the the administrators.

Users should feel free and are encouraged to leave comments on a photograph using the comment box under each photograph. Criticism, praise, and other constructive comments are all welcome. Blatantly slanderous, rude, or profane comments may be removed, and the owners of such comments may be suspended or lose their accounts.

Photographs are shown in the voting area in random order for each user. Absolutely no other preference is applied to non-rated photographs. Once a photo is rated, it is shown on the main voting page along with other submissions with the same rating. Users may adjust their votes directly from this thumbnail-view page only after casting an initial vote for an image -- it is unfair to vote on the quality of a photograph based solely on a server-generated thumbnail of that image.

DPChallenge also monitors and enforces a strict policy against fraudulent accounts and 'ghost' ballots. Any attempts to alter the point totals in any way for any photograph will result in immediate loss of account and ban from the site. Photographs of any participating parties may also be removed from past or current challenges.


Site
Site Etiquette
Constructive criticism and competition are more than welcome on the site. Blatant instances of slander, profanity, vulgarity, or other personal attacks anywhere on the site will not be tolerated. This is a website for people of all ages and skill levels to have fun and improve their photography. All we ask is that you treat others with the respect they deserve.

Infractions of site rules may result in disqualification from the current challenge, suspension from features of the site, loss of account, and/or forfeit of any titles or winnings at the discretion of the site administrators. Inappropriate behavior or comments may be edited or removed from the site without notice to the offending user.

Just play nice, and have fun!


Copyrights, Permissions, Reservations
The photographer maintains the copyright to all of his or her submitted photographs on DPChallenge. DPChallenge, however, reserves the right to store, modify, and display all photographs in association with DPChallenge. We also reserve the right to use submitted photographs for DPChallenge-related promotions and games.

DPChallenge reserves the right to modify these rules at any time. Please check them regularly. DPChallenge also reserves the right to take any legal action against anyone caught cheating or otherwise abusing our system.

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NOTE: THE PRECEDING IS A DRAFT AND IS FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY. THIS DOCUMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT A RULES UPDATE.THE OFFICIAL RULES CURRENTLY IN EFFECT ARE AT //www.dpchallenge.com/help_rules.asp.
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-Terry


* This message has been edited by the author on 9/26/2002 7:10:12 PM.
09/26/2002 07:19:11 PM · #2
My reaction on first reading is that these are excellent changes, moderate and fair.

However, I do wonder why we should be able to add Noise. Perhaps I am simply in the dark why that would not be considered an addition to the image.


* This message has been edited by the author on 9/26/2002 7:17:32 PM.
09/26/2002 07:21:33 PM · #3
looks great to me! thanks for the hard work guys!
09/26/2002 07:23:57 PM · #4
Originally posted by jakking:
My reaction on first reading is that these are excellent changes, moderate and fair.

However, I do wonder why we should be able to add Noise. Perhaps I am simply in the dark why that would not be considered an addition to the image.


sometimes it could work-- i have found myself wanting to add a little to get a desired effect on a B&W---ditto for blur, (ahem--soft focus! hehe) i prolly would rarely use it, but it is nice to have the option.

09/26/2002 08:15:33 PM · #5
These sound really good. The dimension change is a huge bonus.

Would it be possible to clarify in the revised rules if converting an image to CMYK or Lab to work on curves before converting back to RGB is allowed or forbidden?

Thanks,
Jeremy
09/26/2002 10:27:55 PM · #6
would the noise filter fix a hot pixel?

Tim

edit
It will, dont know why i didn't just try right away.

* This message has been edited by the author on 9/26/2002 10:30:21 PM.
09/26/2002 10:28:45 PM · #7
I think that the ARTWORK rules need to be explained better.
09/26/2002 10:47:15 PM · #8
Seems fair to me, and my pictures need all the help they can get.
09/26/2002 11:14:49 PM · #9
Originally posted by Digipixer:
I think that the ARTWORK rules need to be explained better.

I agree, Statues in Parks or historic places would fall under that rule as writen as does religious icons.

Otherwise looks great. :)



* This message has been edited by the author on 9/26/2002 11:14:59 PM.
09/26/2002 11:16:53 PM · #10
I don't think I agree with the noise and gaussian blur filters. These seem like artificial effects which can usually be replicated using the camera.

On second thought, maybe the noise filter is okay since we don't have the ability to choose different film types, but gaussian blur doesn't seem right. If you want a soft focus, you should learn how to do it in camera.
09/26/2002 11:24:53 PM · #11
mci - many cameras have fully automatic focus, like mine. I don't even get to half press the button to use focus lock. I don't seem to have any problems getting soft focus most of the time even when I don't want it... but that's not the same as doing it intentionally, which I can't :).

Also, using a very slight gaussian blur can help fix jaggies and raster patterns in some cases.
09/26/2002 11:29:48 PM · #12
Originally posted by lisae:
mci - many cameras have fully automatic focus, like mine. I don't even get to half press the button to use focus lock. I don't seem to have any problems getting soft focus most of the time even when I don't want it... but that's not the same as doing it intentionally, which I can't :).


okay, i can agree with that. i just hope we don't see 100 grainy black and white pictures the first challenge with the new rules. heh.


09/26/2002 11:41:53 PM · #13
I would like to see added that during voting the pictures cannot be discussed nor the comments received during the week in order to maintain anonymity. Furthermore, a submission should not be shown on one's own website or on another website during the week of voting.

We go through the anonymity issue just about every week and invariably posts get written that "the etiquette of the voting process .... blabhblahblah". I feel we either make it a rule or we scrap the anonymity issue. The way it is right now is wishy washy.

On DQ: My camera, and presumably a few others, does NOT have EXIF data. Before submitting here I downloaded PIE and I also talked with Sony's Technical Dept who confirmed to me that EXIF data cannot be gotten for my camera. If I'm wrong please advise. If I'm right, then I feel it is unfair to those of us whose cameras do not support EXIF data to be automatically disqualified in case someone requests a DQ. When it comes right down to it, we work here on the honor system: if you really wanted to cheat, by altering EXIF data or spot editing, you very likely could get away with it. I can submit the image as it comes off my camera, describe the steps taken to get to the submitted image. There's no way I can prove whether the image was made during the proper week or not.
09/26/2002 11:54:46 PM · #14
1) Should probably put Despeckle back into the list of explicitly permitted filters.

2) I'd like to also allow the use of the eliptical selection tool (preferably with feathering, but even without) in addition to rectangular -- oval mattes/vignettes are pretty standard cropping/printing techniques, and might enhance some photos. It would also allow cropping out undesirable elements (a stray light, branch, person) which is off in one corner...

3) For artwork, I think the key point is that the photograph may not consist entirely of another piece of artwork, but must appear in some "context."

4) I have some very minor language suggestions for clarity but which make no substantive changes -- I'll send those along later...

Great job, Terry!
09/27/2002 12:14:52 AM · #15
Great job... One small suggestion :

"A person may only hold one DPChallenge account and may submit only one photograph per challenge. He will not be able to vote on his own image."

... should be revised to ...

"A person may only hold one DPChallenge account and may submit only one photograph per challenge. She/He will not be able to vote on his/her own image."

That would avoid the inevitable discussion about meat-eating males dominating an otherwise peaceful and harmonic exsistance... :)
09/27/2002 01:10:16 AM · #16
It is easy enough to set up a system so that the email address given when you first sign in has to be a real email address. With the trolls getting ugly I suspect that should be part of the new coding.

They are always too cowardly to want to own up to their words, as has been seen a few times today in a very ugly manner. So this should be a priority.
09/27/2002 06:29:06 AM · #17
Great job Terry!

I guess I wonder about the need for the borders. I can understand it now because it would be nice to be able to crop a shot further and add a border to be able to get it up to legal. With the new rules, it doesn't appear that there is a minimum size so that would not be necessary. I guess that I fear that the addition of borders could take away from the idea that we are still after "photo taking" and not "dressing up".

Do you think it would be a good idea to have a minimun size? I would hate to have long threads of rants in the forums about the merits of voting on a thumbnail size shot vs a 640 X 640. Vote on the shot on it's merits, not in relationship to it's size. Can't a postage stamp be a work of art? The big shots with all the mega-pixels are getting all of the good votes. (whine, whine, cry, cry

In addition, without a minumun we are actually opening up to a form of panorama shots. You could enter a 640w X 200h of a Cityscape or Landscape that would certainly accentuate that shot but may give it an "unfair" advantage over the other photos that week. I can envision tall 640h X 250w shots of flowers with stems as well. Is this what is wanted?

Perhaps in my amateurism I am missing the point of both of these ideas but I would love an explanation. Thanks for all of the hard work.
09/27/2002 07:31:40 AM · #18
I think its almost perfect. There is only one addition I'd like to make to the rules. Allow dodging and burning.
09/27/2002 08:55:07 AM · #19
Wouldn't dodging and burning be spot editing?

I, too, would like to see a minimum requirement for the dimension of the photo.

Otherwise, seems great!

09/27/2002 09:35:03 AM · #20
A quick reply to the questions to this point in the thread. Some have already been answered but I'll try to answer those again anyway, so you know what our rationale was when we wrote these:

jakking wrote:
However, I do wonder why we should be able to add Noise. Perhaps I am simply in the dark why that would not be considered an addition to the image.

The noise filter essentially creates the effect of grain. Since users of mid-level and high-end cameras can generally choose their ISO setting and therefore add noise/grain, this helps to level the playing field by making the effect available to users who can't do it in-camera.

jperez1690 wrote:
Would it be possible to clarify in the revised rules if converting an image to CMYK or Lab to work on curves before converting back to RGB is allowed or forbidden?

Color-space conversions are, and will continue to be, allowed, and fall under the language in the "Image Modifications" paragraph.

Niten wrote:
would the noise filter fix a hot pixel?

Noise might cover it up by making it look like part of the added grain, but the "Dust & Scratches" filter seems to do a pretty good job of removing the effect of hot pixels. Dust & Scratches would be legal under these proposed rules. Also under the current rules I've had quite a bit of luck removing hot pixels by running despeckle after resizing.

Digipixer wrote:
I think that the ARTWORK rules need to be explained better.

This section reflects no changes from the current rules, but we can certainly consider this. Is there anything in particular that is unclear, and do you have any specific suggestions to improve it? My standard for DQ has been that if the photograph compels the user to rate entirely based upon the work of art represented and not on the photographer's artistic decisions, it violates this rule. Maybe language to that effect should be added?

mci wrote:
I don't think I agree with the noise and gaussian blur filters. These seem like artificial effects which can usually be replicated using the camera.

On second thought, maybe the noise filter is okay since we don't have the ability to choose different film types, but gaussian blur doesn't seem right. If you want a soft focus, you should learn how to do it in camera.


Many consumer-market digital cameras are point and shoot and do not allow the user to set these effects in camera (for example, I can set my ISO speed and it seems you cant). These were added to the permitted filters list to help level the playing field.

Journey wrote:
I would like to see added that during voting the pictures cannot be discussed nor the comments received during the week in order to maintain anonymity. Furthermore, a submission should not be shown on one's own website or on another website during the week of voting.

Excellent point. The previous poll on this suggests people favor this. If we add this to the rules, however, we need to set the consequences for violation, and DQ seems a bit extreme, at least for a first infraction. As for the web posting thing, I'd personally limit that to other photo rating/contest sites, or sites link to from the user's profile or signature. Basically, don't put it anywhere that someone who likes the anonymoity could stumble upon it. Suggestions?

Journey wrote:
On DQ: My camera, and presumably a few others, does NOT have EXIF data. Before submitting here I downloaded PIE and I also talked with Sony's Technical Dept who confirmed to me that EXIF data cannot be gotten for my camera. If I'm wrong please advise. If I'm right, then I feel it is unfair to those of us whose cameras do not support EXIF data to be automatically disqualified in case someone requests a DQ. When it comes right down to it, we work here on the honor system: if you really wanted to cheat, by altering EXIF data or spot editing, you very likely could get away with it. I can submit the image as it comes off my camera, describe the steps taken to get to the submitted image. There's no way I can prove whether the image was made during the proper week or not.

We are aware that certain cameras do not store EXIF data. In those cases we work without it. I'm reluctant to add this to the rules document, though, as there are individials who might take advantage of that as a loophole.

GeneralE wrote:
1) Should probably put Despeckle back into the list of explicitly permitted filters.

Easy enough.

GeneralE wrote:
2) I'd like to also allow the use of the eliptical selection tool (preferably with feathering, but even without) in addition to rectangular -- oval mattes/vignettes are pretty standard cropping/printing techniques, and might enhance some photos. It would also allow cropping out undesirable elements (a stray light, branch, person) which is off in one corner...

Good point. I like this.

GeneralE wrote:
3) For artwork, I think the key point is that the photograph may not consist entirely of another piece of artwork, but must appear in some "context."

Agreed. I'll draft some language for this.

myqyl wrote:
"A person may only hold one DPChallenge account and may submit only one photograph per challenge. He will not be able to vote on his own image."

... should be revised to ...

"A person may only hold one DPChallenge account and may submit only one photograph per challenge. She/He will not be able to vote on his/her own image."


Good point. I drafted the former because that's technically gramatically correct but I'll update to the second.

jakking wrote:
It is easy enough to set up a system so that the email address given when you first sign in has to be a real email address. With the trolls getting ugly I suspect that should be part of the new coding.

They are always too cowardly to want to own up to their words, as has been seen a few times today in a very ugly manner. So this should be a priority.


Not really a rules update so much as a code update, but an excellent idea. I'll pass it on.

DougPaz wrote:
I guess I wonder about the need for the borders. I can understand it now because it would be nice to be able to crop a shot further and add a border to be able to get it up to legal. With the new rules, it doesn't appear that there is a minimum size so that would not be necessary. I guess that I fear that the addition of borders could take away from the idea that we are still after "photo taking" and not "dressing up".

Not all photographs look good against a white, or black, or 18% grey background. This was provided as a compromise between those who wanted photographer-customizable background colors and those who felt it would make for a bad interface.

DougPaz wrote:
Do you think it would be a good idea to have a minimun size? I would hate to have long threads of rants in the forums about the merits of voting on a thumbnail size shot vs a 640 X 640. Vote on the shot on it's merits, not in relationship to it's size. Can't a postage stamp be a work of art? The big shots with all the mega-pixels are getting all of the good votes. (whine, whine, cry, cry

In addition, without a minumun we are actually opening up to a form of panorama shots. You could enter a 640w X 200h of a Cityscape or Landscape that would certainly accentuate that shot but may give it an "unfair" advantage over the other photos that week. I can envision tall 640h X 250w shots of flowers with stems as well. Is this what is wanted?


I think the megapixel issue is covered by the 640-pixel limitation on the long side. Otherwise, I think this puts the artistic decision, and the artistic risk, in the hands of the photographer. If a user wants to submit a panoramic crop, I have no problem with that so long as the shot represents a single image and not a stitched shot. If some smartass wants to submit a shot at 640x1, well, at least it won't take long to vote on.

Thanks everyone, please keep the comments coming.

-Terry


* This message has been edited by the author on 9/27/2002 9:55:42 AM.
09/27/2002 09:55:55 AM · #21
Good job, Terry.

Just a few comments:

1) We need a minimum size (perhaps 240 or 320 on each side?). In my opinion, my photo this week looks better in the thumbnail size than it does when you see the whole image. Of course, it also obscures a lot of the problems with my photo. Can we really provide quality feedback on a 120 by 120 photo? I know somebody said that artwork can be postage-sized as well... but does anyone actually know of a famous photo that really was postage-stamp sized that looked _better_ at that size?

2) Please, no noise, no guassion blur! I can see all sorts of comments "you've got a little bit of noise there!", or "your focus is a bit too soft", and then come the rants on the forums: "But I meant it to be noisy!". Besides, there are photographic and other post-processing techniques that you can use to achieve the same effect if you really want it.

3) Can the rules about CMYK, RGB, and Lab modes be clarified? (For instance, as someone asked earlier... can you convert RGB to CMYK to do your processing, then convert back?), etc... How about running legal filters or adjustments on just a single channel?

4) I love the new section about layers! No layers except adjustment layers, and even then the blending most must be normal. Perfecto!

5) I love the new allowance of filters to "clean up" noise only. This will really allow those with lower-end camera to have a fighting chance week in and week out.

6) Maybe instead of being able to add a border, how about an option when you submit your photo have it displayed in a pre-fabricated border (with only several color options available for the user to choose from... say black, white, or grey). This is easily done using HTML tables.

This accomplished several things. First of all: the photo itself no longer has the border. There are no discussions as to what constitues a "solid-colored" border. It won't reveal the owner of a photographer during a challenge by their choice of border color. It's trivially easier for even new users to have their photos displayed in a border on DPChallenge than it is for them to try to add one themselves in Photoshop, et al. And finally, it standardizes the borders so that the emphasis is still on the photo and not how it is bordered.

-------------------------------------------

I think anything that keeps the emphasis on the actual photography and the usual post-processing is a good thing. Right now there are so many things to look for in a photo: good focus, use of DOF, exposure, ISO settings, composition, color balance, and on and on. I don't think we need to add to our worries whether we used the exact right shade of blue for our border, or whether or 300x300 photo would look better at 120x120.
09/27/2002 10:16:13 AM · #22
Please, no elliptical-shaped photos!


... oval mattes/vignettes are pretty standard cropping/printing techniques, and might enhance some photos .
&lt;----- And that's exactly why! There are enough photographic techniques to master besides wondering whether you should use an elliptic crop or not.

Furthermore, would we then be able to add an elliptic border to our elliptic photos?



* This message has been edited by the author on 9/27/2002 10:14:37 AM.
09/27/2002 10:20:08 AM · #23
Also, are filters and/or actions whose sole purpose is to correct barrel distortion (usually from wide angle lenses) to be permitted?

Sorry, a lot posts already. I'll shut up for a while now! :-)


09/27/2002 10:27:39 AM · #24
Originally posted by chariot:
I think its almost perfect. There is only one addition I'd like to make to the rules. Allow dodging and burning.

Sorry I missed this one on my original comments.

I don't think this addition is very likely, condidering this would essentially be selective/spot-editing. This would place too much emphasis on the Photoshop aspects for many people's taste. That said, after the updated site goes live and people settle in I may once again push for a separate "darkroom challenge" for people who wish to pursue more advanced Photoshop techniques.
09/27/2002 10:30:07 AM · #25
6) Maybe instead of being able to add a border, how about an option when you submit your photo have it displayed in a pre-fabricated border (with only several color options available for the user to choose from... say black, white, or grey). This is easily done using HTML tables.

This makes excellent scence to me. Serves directly the purpose as stated.
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