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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Shapelle Corby
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05/27/2005 09:56:59 AM · #1
One should never try and validate third world justice from a civil point of view. There are so many holes in this case one could call them craters.
05/27/2005 09:52:18 AM · #2
quote"it seems a pretty powerful argument against Corby that she should have noticed that her bag had doubled in weight" unquote
apparently she didn't pick it up off the turntable... her brother grabed the boggie board while she grabbed her suitcase, the policeman came up and asked her brother was that his bogie board... and Schapelle said no it's mine...... that was the biggest mistake of her life.. so you see she couldn't have noticed a weight difference as she didn't actually carry it... until she had to unzip it....

i travelled the world in 89' and many many many times my suitcase came back with the lock tampered with and unlocked...... so maybe this happened to me too, i was obviously just luckily enough for the drugs to be picked up at their destination, i do know people though that have got back to their motel room and found bags of herion in their suitcases..... it happens more often than what you think... and realistically ( being a non marijuana smoker or drug taker) marijuana is sooo harmless that it's not funny, well compared to taking 20 years off the life of someone.... god she really would have been better off organising a terriost attack, she would of reiceved less time....
05/27/2005 09:20:40 AM · #3
Originally posted by rgo:

Originally posted by lentil:

I dont have any sympathy for the bali 9, i do however have sympathy for schappelle. There is just way too many holes in this case


I suppose you have confidence that the Indonesian authorities got the 9 other cases right, but not in the Corby case? I'm also supposing that you've were as interested in the cases for the 9 as they were taking place, the same way you're interested in Corby's case now? And you think the holes in the cases for the 9 are not too many?

Right...


Just a quick comparison here.

Bali nine.... heroin strapped to bodies under clothing, entire procedure re:capture and arrest videotaped. Proper fingerprinting and identification done. No reasonable doubt.

Schapelle corby. 4.5 kgs of marijuana found in unlocked bag. Somehow drugs get through both Brisbane and Sydney Airport security undetected (note: security at both airports is state of the art) before being found in Indonesia. Large discrepancy between street value in Australia and Indonesia (i.e makes no financial sense to take risk trafficking marijuana from place where it's worth five times as much. BAG CONTAINING DRUGS NOT FINGERPRINTED.

Depending on your view - the facts in the second situation can feasibly give rise to doubts. The facts in situation one are completely clear cut.
05/27/2005 08:08:32 AM · #4
no i dont have sympathy for the bali 9. The drugs were found strapped to them. Uh i wonder how they got there? They were also carrying heroin not marijuana. You will find alot of australians feeling the exact same way as me
05/27/2005 07:52:42 AM · #5
Originally posted by lentil:

I dont have any sympathy for the bali 9, i do however have sympathy for schappelle. There is just way too many holes in this case


I suppose you have confidence that the Indonesian authorities got the 9 other cases right, but not in the Corby case? I'm also supposing that you've were as interested in the cases for the 9 as they were taking place, the same way you're interested in Corby's case now? And you think the holes in the cases for the 9 are not too many?

Right...
05/27/2005 07:42:58 AM · #6
Its all a money Game... take any fees, probation costs, Lawyer fees out of the picture and none of the legal system gives a sh_t
05/27/2005 07:38:32 AM · #7
Originally posted by samtrundle:



Sadly the attention the media have given to this case probably has something to do with the superficial characteristics of corby - she is an attractive, young, female.


When she is shown in such an emotional state of grief many in Australia share her grief.

This is where the media have played their part in giving the masses an opinion and mean while they have made a bit of money for themselves.
05/27/2005 07:25:25 AM · #8
We would solve so many problems in the world if drugs were legal for ADULTS. Prohibition doesnt work
05/27/2005 07:21:51 AM · #9
Originally posted by samtrundle:

Originally posted by rgo:


Is Corby special because she's Australian? Because she's not African? because she's a she? Because she's Caucasian? Etc...


Sadly the attention the media have given to this case probably has something to do with the superficial characteristics of corby - she is an attractive, young, female.

However, you will note that most of the people posting in this thread are Australian... of course they will be more interested in the case of an Australian than an african. Also, you will note that there are other nine other Australian's currently facing the death penalty in Bali on similar charges - no one is disputing/questioning their guilt here - there are not major, inexplicable holes in the case.

As I said, earlier, I'm not sure she's innocent but I'm not sure she's guilty either, and it's a little sad that someone in that position, whose guilt is by no means certain, is likely going to spend the next 20 years in prison.


very well said
I dont have any sympathy for the bali 9, i do however have sympathy for schappelle. There is just way too many holes in this case
05/27/2005 07:18:50 AM · #10
Originally posted by rgo:


Is Corby special because she's Australian? Because she's not African? because she's a she? Because she's Caucasian? Etc...


Sadly the attention the media have given to this case probably has something to do with the superficial characteristics of corby - she is an attractive, young, female.

However, you will note that most of the people posting in this thread are Australian... of course they will be more interested in the case of an Australian than an african. Also, you will note that there are other nine other Australian's currently facing the death penalty in Bali on similar charges - no one is disputing/questioning their guilt here - there are not major, inexplicable holes in the case.

As I said, earlier, I'm not sure she's innocent but I'm not sure she's guilty either, and it's a little sad that someone in that position, whose guilt is by no means certain, is likely going to spend the next 20 years in prison.
05/27/2005 07:03:34 AM · #11
Originally posted by Natator:

Originally posted by kiwinick:

Indonesia is not the only country with a hard line on drugs, last year a kiwi teacher got 6months jail in Japan for possession of one only cannabis ciggy. If you break a countries rules be prepared to pay the price,.


Agreed ....

However, the point there is "if you break the rules".

Did she? I don't believe so, as she was unaware the drugs were even in her possession.

Let's say you had drugs placed in your bag, and the authorities discovered them. You were unaware of their existance. Would you consider you broke the rules? Would you if convicted go "Oh well, I broke their rules, I guess I'll just do my time now" ... or would you feel you were unfairly imprisoned?

If she was drug trafficing then she deserves the 20 years, However, I do not believe it was proved that she did ..... as unlike the legal system here and in the US, she had to actively prove she did not do it, rather than them prove she did. From what I have seen the evidence against her was flimsy to say the least ... but not evidence that she had anything to counter with.


Most people found by the police in possession of narcotics would naturally plead innocence. The burden of proof regarding whether or not the carrier intended to carry is not on the police, but on the suspect. The police have done their job, namely catch someone who was in possession. If saying "I didn't know that was in the bag" or "It's not mine and someone must have planted it there" were enough to get drug traffickers off the hook, then I'd expect more people to carry dope, heroin, cocaine, etc with them when they travel.

The evidence is flimsy...well...what more do you want? They caught her with the dope in her bag. If that's not a slam-dunk, then I don't know what would be.

The thing that is most interesting from my point of view is the fact that each year, in Indonesia and other Southeast Asian countries, thousands of people do get nabbed for carrying narcotics across borders. In the case for Indonesia, the vast majority are African men, and there are some 30 of them on death row in Indonesian jails now. I'm quite sure that "I didn't know anything about that" was offered by these men as a defence.

BUT did we hear about them? Did their cases receive the same (or anywhere near) amount of publicity as the Corby case? Did the general public, a term that includes all of us, care about them the same way that many of us apparently do now about Corby?

I think it's pretty clear that the answers to the above questions are "NO." So, the next question becomes "Why not?"

Is Corby special because she's Australian? Because she's not African? because she's a she? Because she's Caucasian? Etc...
05/27/2005 06:53:18 AM · #12
Originally posted by rgo:



Second: Yes, the Indonesian judiciary is deeply flawed and many if not most of its officers are either direct or indirect participants in corruption. There are inconsistencies in Indonesian laws, but these can be attributed to the fact that the entire judicial system is based on the Dutch model dating back to colonial times. During the five years I spent in Indonesia as a foreign correspondent, I'd banged my head against the wall in deep frustration with how the courts work, their inconsistencies, etc.

Third: I firmly believe that when in Rome, act like the Romans do, and accept the "localized" consequences of your actions. Ignorance of the local laws is not an excuse.

Fourth: Yes, I feel quite a bit for Corby, particularly as there are questions about her ownership of the dope. But "It's not mine," without further concrete evidence supporting it, would not fly in Rome, Melbourne or New York. So, why do we expect it to fly in Denpasar, Bali or Jakarta?

The Corby case is a specific judicial matter. Leave it as that. Extrapolating other things about Indonesia from this one legal case amounts to being shortsighted and smacks of bigotry.


Gday Rob,

Whilst I agree with quite a bit of what you've posted - Particularly when it comes to doing as the Romans do, I thought I'd just make a couple of counter-points. Additionally I do not believe that this one case can be seen as a reflection on the nature of the indonesian people or nation as a whole - don't punish the rest of the country because of flaws that may or may not exist in it's judicial system.

First - issues of corruption and the like in the indonesian judiciary cannot accurately be attributed to inherent flaws in the model upon which their system is based. The Indonesian legal system operates on a civil law, inqusitorial system, which means it is founded upon the same basis as the french and german systems (from which the dutch system you speak of was derived) which clearly function effectively and are, by and large, free of corruption. The cause of entrenched corruption you speak of, cannot then be said to reside within the inherent properties of the civil law system in operation in Indonesia.

Secondly, when it comes to what would fly in Rome, Melbourne or New York, what wouldn't fly in those locale's is the ineptitude of the police officers handling the initial discovery of the drugs. I don't presume to know how the Italian system operates, but the failure on behalf of those officers to fingerprint the bag involved might even preclude the case from getting to trial due to the procedural deficiencies involved in either of the other locales. If, as would likely be the case, a trial were to ensue, the requirement(which would exist in both a New York and Melbourne jurisdiction) that guilt of the accused be proved beyond reasonable doubt would in all likelihood not be satisfied due to the lack of finger-printing, confusion as to why on earth she'd bring drugs into indonesia where the street price is lower, how the drugs managed to get through customs at both brisbane and sydney airport (which have some fairly state of the art security), and (though I'm not sure about this one - I hadn't heard it until someone else posted it) a discrepancy between the weight of Corby's baggage in Brisbane and in Bali. Thus, in the jurisdictions you mentioned she'd likely be acquitted. While, from what I saw her defence team were not exactly brilliant legal minds, the argument they put forth was hopefully a little stronger than "it wasn't mine....the defence rests."

Oh, another point, while I have no idea where the majority of Bali's tourism income comes from, and more importantly I don't think Australia's aid or tourism expenditure is relevant to Corby's case, I can tell you now that the figures you quote to suggest that Australia is not the main source of tourism income in Bali quite simply do not accomplish your goal unless you provide reference to the number of visitors from each of those locations. I daresay, given the proximity of Australia to Bali, and the wide availability of cheap airfares there may well be considerably more Australian visitors to bali. Again, I don't know whether that's right, I'm just trying to make the point that those figures don't, without more, tell us much.

The sultan of brunei could spend a week and several million dollars there but it wouldn't mean that Brunei accounted for most of Bali's tourism income :).

Cheers

Anders

Message edited by author 2005-05-27 06:56:06.
05/27/2005 06:44:38 AM · #13
Originally posted by kiwinick:

Indonesia is not the only country with a hard line on drugs, last year a kiwi teacher got 6months jail in Japan for possession of one only cannabis ciggy. If you break a countries rules be prepared to pay the price,.


Agreed ....

However, the point there is "if you break the rules".

Did she? I don't believe so, as she was unaware the drugs were even in her possession.

Let's say you had drugs placed in your bag, and the authorities discovered them. You were unaware of their existance. Would you consider you broke the rules? Would you if convicted go "Oh well, I broke their rules, I guess I'll just do my time now" ... or would you feel you were unfairly imprisoned?

If she was drug trafficing then she deserves the 20 years, However, I do not believe it was proved that she did ..... as unlike the legal system here and in the US, she had to actively prove she did not do it, rather than them prove she did. From what I have seen the evidence against her was flimsy to say the least ... but not evidence that she had anything to counter with.


05/27/2005 06:12:58 AM · #14
Originally posted by lentil:

I think we should start a boycott. All aussies dont go to Bali. I am quite sure we are their main source of money.


Please check facts:
Quoting a World Bank report on Bali tourism from January 2003:
"Average daily expenditures vary by nationality -- ranging from US$110 for Japan, US$55 for Australia and US$62 for the US."

Australians are NOT the main source of tourism income in Bali.

Originally posted by lentil:

Like you said before the bali bomber got 3 yrs. Who was there to help clean up and get order back, aussies, 9 air crew lost their lives there helping in Bali as well. I am just so disgusted. I will never go there.


9 air crew lost their lives helping in Bali? Are you talking about the heli crash a couple of months ago following the earthquake in off Nias? If that's the case, then perhaps this clarification can help. Bali is an island. It's not a country. Bali is within Indonesia, which is a country. Nias, Aceh and other areas that suffered greatly from the devastating tsunami of December 26, 2004 and follow-up aftershocks are not parts of Bali. Like Bali, however, they are parts of Indonesia.

Hope this helps clarify the matter a bit ;-)
05/27/2005 05:52:29 AM · #15
Originally posted by roadrunner:

Originally posted by Robro:

The Bali bomber got 3 years jail for killing heaps...
Even if she did bring in the marujuana... how may people is 4.5 kilos going to kill?
Strange justice....


YES robro... my thoughts exactly... it annoys me how many millions we have given to that particular country over the years to help them, and the government or whoever it is responsible won't allow this obviously troubled case of evidence any real thought... in their eyes it's exactly what stphw said, 'your bag? too bad so sad'... gosh herion dealers and murders from other countries get away scott free over here....and the list goes on.... it's an absolute crying shame, i feel so much for her and her family, it really could have been anyone of us, or 'can' be anyone of our children in years to come..... i will be really feeling for them tomorrow...i just hope a miracle happens for them all....


First: I reckon you both should check your facts. More than 30 people have been tried in connection to the October 2002 bombings in Kuta, Bali, which killed 202 people. The sentences handed out to them ranged from 3 years (in the case of accomplices) to death (in the case of those who planned the attacks and had direct involvement in it). Whether or not those sentenced to death would actually be executed is a different matter.

Second: Yes, the Indonesian judiciary is deeply flawed and many if not most of its officers are either direct or indirect participants in corruption. There are inconsistencies in Indonesian laws, but these can be attributed to the fact that the entire judicial system is based on the Dutch model dating back to colonial times. During the five years I spent in Indonesia as a foreign correspondent, I'd banged my head against the wall in deep frustration with how the courts work, their inconsistencies, etc.

Third: I firmly believe that when in Rome, act like the Romans do, and accept the "localized" consequences of your actions. Ignorance of the local laws is not an excuse.

Fourth: Yes, I feel quite a bit for Corby, particularly as there are questions about her ownership of the dope. But "It's not mine," without further concrete evidence supporting it, would not fly in Rome, Melbourne or New York. So, why do we expect it to fly in Denpasar, Bali or Jakarta?

Fifth: If you seriously think that Westerners give millions, if not billions of dollars in aid yearly to developing countries such as Indonesia based on altruistic reasons, then you're seriously kidding yourself. There are very political reasons behind "aid," and aid givers reap the benefits that their "contributions" sow.

Sixth: It is precisely the attitude that "since Westerners have given millions in aid, they should get special treatments, or the beneficiaries should feel particularly grateful, etc" sparks the recent wave of anti-Western, anti-American, anti-Australian or anti-etc sentiments in much of the developing world.

The Corby case is a specific judicial matter. Leave it as that. Extrapolating other things about Indonesia from this one legal case amounts to being shortsighted and smacks of bigotry.
05/27/2005 05:20:59 AM · #16
Originally posted by lentil:

why would anyone bring pot into Bali when you can get it so cheap there? I just dont understand why the judges etc arent looking at all the facts.


The Corby case is dramatic, sad, and unquestionably intriguing. Admittedly I hate the way the media jumps on these individual court cases and saps them for all they are worth - it seems that in Australia the two biggest news stories of 2005 have been the corby case and michael jackson's trial. Why are the legal proceedings of these individuals more important than the deaths of nine Australian soldiers in a helicopter, the aftermath of the tsunami or the massive HIV epidemic sweeping the developing world? Because we love a good drama, we love feeling sorry for pretty girls and getting an insight into the lives of quirky celebrities. Sad but true.

Anyway, as for the case itself - it's a mistake to think that there is no market for marijuana in indonesia - it certainly seems odd that someone would smuggle it from Australia to Indonesia when it's street value here is far higher, but people do smuggle drugs into indonesia regularly - as witnessed by the number of foreigners currently serving life sentences in indonesian jails for doing just that - they werent all the victim of an elaborate baggage handler driven drug ring. With respect to Corby, the indonesian system (accoring to a legal expert I saw on TV one night) does operate on an innocent til proven guilty basis... which does make one wonder whether their own laws have been applied properly. No judge could reasonably be persuaded by the hearsay testimony of an Australian prison inmate as to a drug trade - it simply wouldn't be convincing, and frankly I'm surprised the testimony was even allowed at all. I would, however, have thought that the fact that the bag was never fingerprinted would have been more problematic for the prosecution in securing a conviction. That, for mine, demonstrates sheer ineptitude on the part of the police officers involved.

It seems a pretty powerful argument against Corby that she should have noticed that her bag had doubled in weight - but in the midst of the stress that can be international travel I can understand how that would go unnoticed. I hadn't heard anything as to whether records indicated a change in the weight of her baggage from Brisbane to Bali, but if so, it would seem a strange oversight on the part of her defence team not to introduce that into evidence (you've gotta question their own competence if that was the case).

On balance it does seem more likely than not that Schapelle Corby was not responsible for the drugs... and if that is the case you can't help but feel bitterly sorry for the poor girl. Twenty years in prison for something you didn't do is approximately the worst situation someone could find themselves in. On the other hand, if they were her druges then, like the Bali nine, I have far less sympathy - it's not as if there aren't enough movies and media reports detailing the severity of south-east asian laws when it comes to illicit substances -you'd have to be crazy (or ridiculously stupid) to try and smuggle anything.
05/27/2005 04:45:35 AM · #17
Even if she was guilty the punishment does not fit the crime but it is a lesson to all who travel to Asia be very careful with your luggage.
As for those herion smugglers ( the Bali Nine ) if they are found guilty they should be imprisoned not executed and I have very little sympathy for them.
05/27/2005 04:40:16 AM · #18
Indonesia is not the only country with a hard line on drugs, last year a kiwi teacher got 6months jail in Japan for possession of one only cannabis ciggy. If you break a countries rules be prepared to pay the price,.
05/27/2005 04:27:38 AM · #19
Originally posted by kpriest:

I've put myself on a news blackout recently, so I have no idea what the story is, but it sounds like that movie (can't remember the title) about the 2 girls in a foreign prison for their boyfriend's drugs or something. Was it "Brokedown Palace" or something like that?


what happened was she went to bali on a holiday. Took a boogie board in a bag. When she got to bali they asked her if the bag was hers she said yes. They found 4.5 kilos of marijuana. She says it is not hers, someone planted it. I actually believe she was telling the truth. The bali government wont take any evidence into consideration. They didnt finger print the bag, they didnt check if the bag weighed more in bali than in QLD, there is a man that came forward about knowing someone who was bragging about planting the drugs. He wont name names because he fears for his life. There is just so many things against their judgement that they are not even looking at. 20 years by far is way too long even if she is guilty. They are now appealing for her to serve her time in australia, not a balinese prison. Really makes you think, that is basically her life gone, she will be too old to have children, will have no job skills, will be miles from her family. It is just such a shame
05/27/2005 04:20:36 AM · #20
I've put myself on a news blackout recently, so I have no idea what the story is, but it sounds like that movie (can't remember the title) about the 2 girls in a foreign prison for their boyfriend's drugs or something. Was it "Brokedown Palace" or something like that?
05/27/2005 12:50:33 AM · #21
Originally posted by roadrunner:

I am so totally disgusted.... if this exact same scenareo was in australia on an indonesion the case would be thrown out of court for not enough evidence, in this case she was jailed for 20years for not enough evidence...!!!! so so wrong..... i keep putting myself in her parents shoes thinking that could so easily be me with one of my kids...... i hope to god every australian STOPS going to Bali as a result of this..... i know we must be one of their biggest money earner's and by not going, i hope this will make them see they really need to fix their legal system up.... i would be so scared to travel there at the moment....i still can't and don't want to imagine how this poor girl must feel... i'd rather be dead......


I think we should start a boycott. All aussies dont go to Bali. I am quite sure we are their main source of money. Like you said before the bali bomber got 3 yrs. Who was there to help clean up and get order back, aussies, 9 air crew lost their lives there helping in Bali as well. I am just so disgusted. I will never go there.
05/27/2005 12:35:16 AM · #22
I am so totally disgusted.... if this exact same scenareo was in australia on an indonesion the case would be thrown out of court for not enough evidence, in this case she was jailed for 20years for not enough evidence...!!!! so so wrong..... i keep putting myself in her parents shoes thinking that could so easily be me with one of my kids...... i hope to god every australian STOPS going to Bali as a result of this..... i know we must be one of their biggest money earner's and by not going, i hope this will make them see they really need to fix their legal system up.... i would be so scared to travel there at the moment....i still can't and don't want to imagine how this poor girl must feel... i'd rather be dead......
05/27/2005 12:28:45 AM · #23
I will never again admit ownership of a bag at an Airport, make them prove it's mine and then I will deny it. Next time I am asked at an Airport if I packed a bag myself I will answer "YES" and then ask if I can load it onto the plane myself. 20 years! lets hope the appeal process holds some hope for her.
05/27/2005 12:07:15 AM · #24
well, she got 20 years. I am in utter disbelief.
05/26/2005 10:37:39 AM · #25
Marijuana killing?.....hmmmmmmm.

I know cigarettes can cause emphasima, so can Marijuana. Is this the "killing" being refered too?

I feel for this girl, but marijuana being classed with heroin? I just don't see the similarities.

Indonesia is a backwards country for sure, maybe this is the reasoning for the "killing" of people.


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