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09/23/2002 07:30:57 PM · #1
OK, lets get this out of the way quickly... Hardly any of the negative space entries, the winner included, adhered to task set in the challenge.. As far as I interpreted it, the negative space was supposed to provide the WOW factor, not the main subject.. Let me explain, I will use the winning entry as an example..(please note, the winning photo was a fantastic piece of creativity and photography so I am not trying to take anything away from it in that respect). We have a partial boys face,underwater, being reflected giving it a very surreal effect, my first thought was "Bloody fantastic, give it a 9 or a 10." BUT, surely I was giving the high mark for the main focus of the subject, my eyes were never really drawn to the negative space, which, even by the photographers own admission thought would let him down due to the dirty mark (edge of pool I believe). I do not intend to start a flame-thread or wish to be called a troll, but I really think the majority of people are rating the pictures on their 'prettiness' and not paying much attention to the actual task that was set by the website.
A great example of the negative space effect was the photo "Cow Space", your eyes were initially drawn to the cows at the bottom but, and I asked several people to view that photo, their eyes were always gradually pulled up to the top of the photo, even though there was nothing there except blue sky, which to me says the negative space had the desired effect. I dont expect to make many friends with this post, but I am entitled to my own opinion so I am making it.

Mark Simms
09/23/2002 07:46:55 PM · #2
After reviewing the submission of Neg. Space I felt that the neg space challenge might have been a bit to hard for beginner and amature photographers to understand (me included!) Ive been shooting more than half my life and I still cant tell the difference between neg. space and a pic with some blank space in it. So I think the voters did the best they could with what they had to work with (artist knowledge that is) so congrats to all that submitted I know it was a hard one to shoot , thats why I didnt submit. so maksimms you are right about people judging the picture more than the artistic definishion but , when i vote I asume all the pic meet the challenge and its up to me to pick the best one of the lot.
09/23/2002 07:48:16 PM · #3
I liked Cowspace a great deal too - the sky was the main focus for
me when I looked at it - really made it feel as if it was
'out in the open air'
09/23/2002 07:51:32 PM · #4
I didn't interpret the challenge this way.

But think of it this way. Take the winning photograph and replace the "negative space" with other objects, other focuses. Put pool tiles or floating rafts or something into that space. It becomes a completely different photograph, and I'd say it probably ruins the entire effect. It's in this regard that I think the "negative space" has contributed significantly to the impact of the image. Without it, it would not have been nearly as dramatic.

That's my take. I don't think the challenge was supposed to make the negative space the focal point of the image. By the very definition of negative space, this isn't possible. It was to use negative space to emphasiee and dramatize the subject of the image.
09/23/2002 07:57:21 PM · #5
I partially agree with you Mark. I didn't think the winning photo was the best use of negative space but it still used negative space. I personally thought that it could have been even better if the boys face were smaller or even if a lanscape format were used. I'm not sure, it's hard to know without trying it. But it is a great photo and a photo can still be a winner even if it doesn't exactly nail the theme as long as the other photographic elements are strong enough, which in this case, they are. I think that's how an artist successfully breaks the rules. Congratulations to the winners.

T
09/23/2002 08:26:56 PM · #6
That's my take. I don't think the challenge was supposed to make the negative space the focal point of the image. By the very definition of negative space, this isn't possible. It was to use negative space to emphasiee and dramatize the subject of the image.


Mike, I am with you 100% that's why I found it so hard to vote on this challenge. I believe negative space should accentuate the subject, not take away from it. Negative space is never the focal point - like a frame. The winner is a great photo but my favorites didn't make it into the top 10. So, what do I know. :(
09/23/2002 08:42:56 PM · #7
Originally posted by joanns:
[i]That's my take. I don't think the challenge was supposed to make the negative space the focal point of the image. By the very definition of negative space, this isn't possible. It was to use negative space to emphasiee and dramatize the subject of the image.


Mike, I am with you 100% that's why I found it so hard to vote on this challenge. I believe negative space should accentuate the subject, not take away from it. Negative space is never the focal point - like a frame. The winner is a great photo but my favorites didn't make it into the top 10. So, what do I know. :([/i]


What he said, what she said !!
Linda

09/23/2002 09:22:40 PM · #8
I absolutelly agree, Mark. I think the winning shot is great but there's others that mastered the topic much better. My top picks:
cowspace (8)
silence (19)
runner (30)
froggy morning (60)
and my favorite for meeting the challenge best is WINDOWS (88). If you go back to the thumbnails and look at place 88 for a few seconds you'll see that the negative and positive space are divided by a perfect diagonal which turns the simple photograph into a 3D form. It plays tricks on your eyes in that the two triangles keep competing. First the sky seemed to be the foreground of the shape and then the windows appear to be the foreground. It's a perfect example of making the negative space be just as important as the positive space.
My other picks I liked because of the impact of the composition. If the photos were cropped in differently they would not have the same appeal to me.
That's my 2 cents...
09/23/2002 09:26:47 PM · #9
Let me ask you this. Do you like looking at a photo with mostly sky. I don't. I like the cow picture, but come it was a little over kill. The negative should make you say wow to the image not the negative. If I am wrong then I took the wrong photo for the challenge. I think the pool photo deservse 1st. The negative is beautiful, which in turn makes a beautiful, creative image.
09/23/2002 11:10:57 PM · #10
I don't think people really were looking at the photos as positive/negative space for the most part. Most people aren't well trained to do that. Here is a modified version of the winning photo so you can see the shapes clearly (I used edge detection then coloured in the white part, and then divided it roughly into thirds with the red lines):

09/23/2002 11:26:39 PM · #11
super demo Lisae! even the pool edge is on the mark. lol
09/24/2002 12:12:46 AM · #12
Originally posted by aelith:
super demo Lisae! even the pool edge is on the mark. lol

You got that right.

Good job Lisae, You know your stuff. :) Why can't I say things like that? I guess its just a gift you have. ;)
09/24/2002 12:16:53 AM · #13
Lisae,
I completely agree with you. Your explanation goes right along with everything I learned in my photography classes and at design school. Negative space is a compositional tool which shoul be used to bring more emphasis to the main subject. In my opinion negative space should not be the main focus of the photo.
09/24/2002 02:32:10 AM · #14
Originally posted by marksimms:
OK, lets get this out of the way quickly... Hardly any of the negative space entries, the winner included, adhered to task set in the challenge.. As far as I interpreted it, the negative space was supposed to provide the WOW factor, not the main subject..

Uh, no. The purpose of negative space is to heighten
attention to the positive space; to draw greater attention to the positive; to make the positive
space have all that much more impact; to support the
objective of making the positive space have more
WOW factor itself.

Consider the winning image, for example. The face itself
is common enough. In a different context, the face would be nice enough, but rather bland and ordinary. In the context of this particular negative space, however, the WOW factor of the face stands out; the negative space has well served it's purpose to help the ordinary become extraordinary.

It's like the space between the notes in music. It's
not the silence itself which makes us go WOW, but rather
how it heightens and emphasizes the musicial notes which are either before or after that silence, or both.

And that's the design purpose of negative space -- not so much an item to call attention to itself, but rather a supporting player who's primary function is to heighten the WOW factor of the positive space.

And that's exactly what it did in the winning image, and
perhaps the best reason why I'm quite happy to see that
that image won the challenge (not to take away from any
of the other fine images, but hey, the winning image is
indeed a most excellent example of good use of negative space).

Or so it seems to me.

***********

I dont expect to make many friends with this post, but I am entitled to my own opinion so I am making it.
Mark Simms

You are indeed entitled to your opinion Mark, and even respect for speaking your mind. (And keep in mind that even best of friends don't always see eye to eye with each other). And you are equally free to disagree with my own assessment of the situation if you so choose. And if you do,(shrug), that's okay too.

CJ

09/24/2002 02:38:12 AM · #15
Originally posted by GordonMcGregor:
I liked Cowspace a great deal too - the sky was the main focus for
me when I looked at it - really made it feel as if it was
'out in the open air'


Going by both what I saw of the image as well as the title, the area above was the main subject of that image. Conseqently, from where I sit, it wasn't the sky which was the "negative space" in that image, but rather the cows.

CJ
09/24/2002 02:40:41 AM · #16
Originally posted by mci:

That's my take. I don't think the challenge was supposed to make the negative space the focal point of the image. By the very definition of negative space, this isn't possible. It was to use negative space to emphasiee and dramatize the subject of the image.


Yeah. Well said.
CJ
09/24/2002 07:47:23 AM · #17
Lisae: Great example! Thanks!

cjmorgan59: Originally posted by cjmorgan59:
It's like the space between the notes in music. It's
not the silence itself which makes us go WOW, but rather
how it heightens and emphasizes the musicial notes which are either before or after that silence, or both.


Awesome analogy... thank you!

Marksimms: Originally posted my marksimms:
I dont expect to make many friends with this post, but I am entitled to my own opinion so I am making it.

This is how we learn.. with these types of discussions. Glad this one has progressed without harsh words. :)




* This message has been edited by the author on 9/24/2002 7:45:58 AM.


* This message has been edited by the author on 9/24/2002 7:46:36 AM.
09/24/2002 09:50:53 AM · #18
Props to Lisae (who never seems to agree with me) for that very informative explanation of the winning photo. I don't know if the photographer could have done it that well.

Mark Simms.... I think you are way off on your interpretation of this challenge, the same way I was way off before I had a lot of questions answered in this forum. Thanks to all you folks in the forums for making this semi-clear for all of us novice photog's. I have a feeling I was voted into oblivion by folks who misinterpreted this challenge. I got only a few critiques so that wasn't helping, and I don't think anyone who left me a critique voted me down too bad. So I too am annoyed that I didn't do better. Probably it's no one's fault but MINE and I can accept that. But I think some of the reason I got 42 1's and 2's is that people were misinterpreting just what negative space is. OR maybe I just took a crappy picture. I did get some nice positive comments with some suggestions for things to do different. Some of them I agree with, some I don't, and some were just not feasable. I knew the shot wasn't going to win anything, but I felt pretty good about it. Okay, now I'm done ranting.

Lastly, Thanks to Joanns for really liking my picture. I'm glad you and a few others expressed some interest in it. That makes it worthwhile to continue posting at least a few more times.
09/24/2002 10:17:51 AM · #19
So many differing opinons. At first I was annoyed with how all of the images were rated, but after reading this thread it made me realize how many different ways a challenge can be interpreted.

I can agree and disagree with so many comments. I too also thought the negative space had to create the wow of the image as stated in the challenge. At first glance the top rated did not do this. My eyes were not drawn to the negative space. But I think all of the photos did great in a challenge of negative space - nothing more and nothing less. Adding the "wow of the image" comment only seemed to confuse people (like myself). In the case of "negative space" I think this was the best set of submissions so far.

I honestly think the real challenge is trying to take shots of what the voters/photographers here actually want to see. Taking a unique picture that only you or a few people will understand will NOT get you in the top 10. Looking at past challenges and looking forward to future challenges really makes me want to be a better photographer.


E.J.
09/24/2002 10:28:00 AM · #20
Originally posted by xertion:

I honestly think the real challenge is trying to take shots of what
the voters/photographers here actually want to see. Taking a unique
picture that only you or a few people will understand will NOT get
you in the top 10. Looking at past challenges and looking forward
to future challenges really makes me want to be a better photographer.


Well said - the real challenge is getting better, not winning a specific
weekly contest. That's why I often feel these long debates over the
challenge meaning and picking words appart are futile. Go and take
some more pictures instead and learn something or make a beautiful
photograph

09/24/2002 05:03:24 PM · #21
I was just going by what the wording said in the challenge description, but like said before, the winning photo was a brilliant piece of creative photography and deserved to place highly... Ironically, dont you think it would of been better suited to this weeks challenge of "reflections without a mirror"..

Thanks for the constructive comments (and the complete lack of abuse, how refreshing!!) on my initial post, and it has made me think about the way some people will interpret a challenge different to myself.. It may make me more open minded when scoring this weeks entries... Its a learning curve for all of us, contributers and voters.
Regards, Mark
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