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09/18/2002 09:01:37 AM · #1
When I first joined the site, I was impressed with the quality of the photos, and I gave out lots of 8's, 9's, and 10's for the beautiful entries. Of course, I didn't have an entry at that time. Well, when I did submit an entry, I saw that I was scoring in the sixes. It becomes a little tough to hand out 10's to my competition when I feel like my entry is as good as theirs, and I am scoring in the sixes.
So, I've realized that the reason for all the ridiculously low scores is because a high vote for them is a vote against myself! I would hope that most people want to be fair, but you can't blame people for not wanting to vote against themselves.

One suggestion: We don't get to see what our entry scored until the voting is over. That way, we can at least delude ourselves into thinking that we are leading the pack, and we might be a little more generous when scoring others.

It amazes me that a real photographer would award an insulting score of 1 or 2 to another photographer, knowing how we all tend to take our work seriously, and the comments personally. If 5 is just average, don't they at least deserve a 3 for making a serious effort?

Food for thought.....

Bob T
09/18/2002 09:10:17 AM · #2
"If 5 is just average, don't they at least deserve a 3 for making a serious effort?"

The scoring range is given as 1 though 10, NOT 3 through 10.

You should of course vote your own conception of how to score, but please do not try to limit those of us who want to use the entire scale.
09/18/2002 09:13:26 AM · #3
Originally posted by jakking:
"If 5 is just average, don't they at least deserve a 3 for making a serious effort?"

The scoring range is given as 1 though 10, NOT 3 through 10.

You should of course vote your own conception of how to score, but please do not try to limit those of us who want to use the entire scale.


Ditto, ditto, and ditto!

09/18/2002 09:18:51 AM · #4
This argument about whether or not you use the whole scale really depends on whether you see it as an absolute scale or a relative one. People who think of it as absolute have a definite idea of what a photo that deserves a 1 or a 2 would look like, and they don't see photos that bad on DPC, so they start rating at 3. On the other hand, people who think of it as relative set the worst photo each week at 1 and the best at 10 and rate all the rest in between.

Neither method is better than the other, it's just a reflection of your own preferences.
09/18/2002 09:22:01 AM · #5
I've got to agree with jakking in that if someone submits a photo demonstrating poor technical skills and no artistic value that doesn't even come close to meeting the challenge, I'm going to give it a one. (Admittedly, the latter two can be pretty subjective.)

While I find the low ball scores a little disappointing, I still give out the same kinds of scores I always have. My average is somewhere around 5.2 or 5.3 over 3000+, so it's pretty close to the norm. I don't think there is a solution for the low ball scores. Forcing people to comment leads to "You suck." comments and making scores non-anonymous will flood the boards with "How could you give me that score?" posts.

I would prefer that we do continue to see our scores. It's one thing to slowly watch your score on a photo you really like fall over a cliff. You get most of a week to brace yourself for a lousy finish. It's another thing to think that you probably did OK, only to have it hit you as a total surprise on Sunday to end up tanked.

09/18/2002 09:22:59 AM · #6
I rate photos within the context of the challenge. I find my favorite and least favorite photos. My favorites get 10s. My least favorites get 3 usually. I rarely give ones or twos...
09/18/2002 09:35:07 AM · #7
Originally posted by lisae:
This argument about whether or not you use the whole scale really depends on whether you see it as an absolute scale or a relative one. People who think of it as absolute have a definite idea of what a photo that deserves a 1 or a 2 would look like, and they don't see photos that bad on DPC, so they start rating at 3. On the other hand, people who think of it as relative set the worst photo each week at 1 and the best at 10 and rate all the rest in between.

Neither method is better than the other, it's just a reflection of your own preferences.


It seems to me that if you see your score evolving, then the scoring becomes relative. We think our entries are good, of course, or why would we enter them? So if we're scoring 5, then doesn't 5 tend to be at the top of our personal scale? If another photo is outstanding, we should score it higher than 5, but I still say it goes against our grain to cast a higher vote for our opponent.
09/18/2002 09:44:43 AM · #8
A little Math Reality Check :)

If someone fairly votes each shot on a scale of 1 to 10 and someone else fairly votes each shot on a scale of 3 to 10, it works out, in mathematical terms, to a wash... It doesn't make a difference.

I personally save 1's and 2's for the kinds of photos I would delete from my hard drive on the first pass through. I haven't found a 1 yet and very few 2's. But if I find them, I'll vote them.

Personally I think 'I' am a horrible voter... I give out WAY too many 10's each week... And if the truth were out, I'd bet we'd find more folks skewing the vote to the high side then the low side... My wife keeps saying, "You gave THAT a 10? (or 9)? I'll do the decorating, thank you very much!"

If we were to eliminate votes of 1 and 2, we should also eliminate 10 and 9... Then we can all complain about how a good shot got that 3...
09/18/2002 09:47:10 AM · #9
I started a tread with a suggestion of our scores being hidden awhile ago and I have to agree with bobtburg that scoring sometimes will depend on where your personal score is.
09/18/2002 09:47:53 AM · #10
Originally posted by jakking:
"If 5 is just average, don't they at least deserve a 3 for making a serious effort?"

The scoring range is given as 1 though 10, NOT 3 through 10.

You should of course vote your own conception of how to score, but please do not try to limit those of us who want to use the entire scale.



I am not trying to limit anyone. I am simply offering my opinion. Please, vote as you see fit. My point is that I consider it destructive criticism to tell a person who is trying their best, that their work is "Very Bad" These are the words that are printed to the left of the scale on the voting page.
09/18/2002 09:49:19 AM · #11
I have voted many more challenges than I have entered, and will continue that way until Pete and I buy a decent digital camera for ourselves at Xmas. Until then I am sticking to my regular SLR.

I use the full range of 1 - 10. But it's not relative, as I use it. I have my own internal idea of what each number means. So some challenges I give out a few 1, 2 and 3 scores. Some I haven't given less than a 4. But I am consistent across the challenges.

Whilst getting a 1 isn't nice (I got 13 x 1 in my Childhood entry) it does reflect the opinion of a section of the viewing audience, and as a photographer, that's what I am interested in. It was news to me that a number of people really dislike BW (and I've been having an email discussion with one of my low scorers about the issue which has been enlightening). I also got a number of 8s, 9s and 10s which also lead me to understand that the photo did reach out and work for some viewers.

I'd rather people who prefer using the whole scale continue giving out 1s if they feel that's what the photo deserves than to inaccurately give me a 4 because they are worried about my feelings.

I want an accurate reflection of opinion on my entry. And in the meantime, whilst voting, that's what I keep in mind and I spend a LOT of time considering the photos during voting - no 5 second and dismiss stuff.

If I feel too emotionally attached to a photo or too fragile to take the 1s I shouldnt be entering. IMHO.

Well mostly Humble anyway ;)


* This message has been edited by the author on 9/18/2002 9:48:22 AM.
09/18/2002 09:49:50 AM · #12
I would like to see a search capapbility that would allow us to pull up all of the profiles by voting average. I have spent some time over the last few days going through profiles looking at peeps averages, and there are more than a few scoring averages that are 2's and 3's (with anywhere from hundreds to thousands of votes).

That tells me that there are quite a number of people out there that are simply randomly handing out very low scores in an apparent attempt to "up" their own rating.

No one could possibly come to this site on a regular basis and determine that, for any given challenge, the field average is a 2. Sorry, don't buy it. That is just plain sabotage in my book.
09/18/2002 09:51:53 AM · #13
I can really, honestly say I've never adjusted my voting because of the score I've gotten. I can understand that some people would do that, but I'm a notoriously uncompetitive person. I get more attached to my favourite photos that were taken by OTHER people each week than my own, and feel terrible if my own photo rated a 4.x and still beat one I gave 10 (which happens quite a lot, strangely).

But I know I'm a freak. If that's what other people do, then it explains a lot.
09/18/2002 09:52:50 AM · #14
WOW. There are scoring AVERAGES at 2? OK you got me - I am surprised. I would have expected, if anyone was being honest and using the 1-10 scale that most averages would have been between 4 and 6.
09/18/2002 09:55:00 AM · #15
Originally posted by Kavey:
WOW. There are scoring AVERAGES at 2? OK you got me - I am surprised. I would have expected, if anyone was being honest and using the 1-10 scale that most averages would have been between 4 and 6.


Most averages are between 4 and 6, actually, but more than you would imagine, are quite low.
Linda
09/18/2002 09:56:58 AM · #16
Most people who have a voting average of 2.x would probably have their votes disqualified nearly every week. If you vote more than 50% 1s and 2s in a challenge week, a script automatically discards all your votes. Drew runs it about 10 minutes before the site turns over, and we all go up a tiny bit :).
09/18/2002 09:59:27 AM · #17
I think it's probably human nature, for the most part, for a voter/photographer to vote lower in hopes of improving his own chances for success.
09/18/2002 10:05:28 AM · #18
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think it's probably human nature, for the most part, for a voter/photographer to vote lower in hopes of improving his own chances for success.


My husband always says, that even at my age, I am naive; I am always hoping for honesty and integrity to win out.
Linda
09/18/2002 10:05:50 AM · #19
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think it's probably human nature, for the most part, for a voter/photographer to vote lower in hopes of improving his own chances for success.


Can't say I think that way... but then I have only entered one challenge so far - looking forward to entering more when I get new camera.

But I am finding it's not too hard for me to remain reasonably consistent because I use my own set scale to refer to.

If I had to judge every photo from ever challenge in one go I might find I'd adjust a few of my votes up and down by one but probably not more than that.
09/18/2002 10:28:27 AM · #20
I agree. I am shocked at voting averages in the 2s and 3s. Seems that those accounts should be evaluated. Yikes!

Dawn
09/18/2002 10:31:33 AM · #21
I vote relatively -- but in relation to my own opinion of my own picture each week. For instance, being as objective as I can using my own scoring scale, my picture would certainly rate a 7 and, on a good day, might push an 8. It is against THIS score that I rate the other pictures. A shot that I think is better than mine will get an 8 or 9 or 10; pictures that I think are not so good will score 6 or less.

Now, I have to say that, while I was voting this week, my own real score was hovering at the 6.0 mark and I was sorely tempted to use THAT as the baseline, but I hope I resisted that all-too-human temptation.
09/18/2002 10:39:47 AM · #22
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think it's probably human nature, for the most part, for a voter/photographer to vote lower in hopes of improving his own chances for success.


Yes, I do too, even if it's on a subliminable ;) level.

How about this one...

Instead of our score showing, we are able to see how we're ranking in the pack. Like maybe, we know if we are in the 1-10, 11-20, 21-30 percent range, etc. Would this be less likely to influence our vote and still let us have an idea of how we are doing?

Just tossin out ideas.
09/18/2002 10:40:17 AM · #23
Originally posted by Kavey:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[i]I think it's probably human nature, for the most part, for a voter/photographer to vote lower in hopes of improving his own chances for success.


Can't say I think that way... but then I have only entered one challenge so far - looking forward to entering more when I get new camera.

But I am finding it's not too hard for me to remain reasonably consistent because I use my own set scale to refer to.

If I had to judge every photo from ever challenge in one go I might find I'd adjust a few of my votes up and down by one but probably not more than that.
[/i]

Maybe DO get influenced by how good (or how bad) we're doing when we vote, or maybe we don't; but never the less, I think this is a great idea. Why do we have to know how good or bad we are doing every 2 hours!? Let's wait 'till the end!

I sure will feel better without the constant pressure of "oh my god, I'm down a .001 of a point!".

Let's have the results at the end as a total sourprise. What do you think?

LM
09/18/2002 11:01:23 AM · #24
Please note that you can go to your preferences page and un-check the box "Current Challenge Statistics" on the lower-left. Then you WILL NOT see your current score on the Home page.
09/18/2002 11:05:38 AM · #25
there is an option in preferences if you would rather wait until the end of the challenge to see your score, and not receive hourly updates on your homepage ...



* This message has been edited by the author on 9/18/2002 11:04:16 AM.
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