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04/07/2005 10:18:31 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by Kylie:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by TacoVendor:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I think this site is sometimes seen as the end instead of the means. |
Quite the contrary for most. Look at the comments and threads - they provide a lot of support and help. Having a few people here that decide to skirt the rules and share their challenge entries before-hand shows what their focus really is here: not the process and instruction, but that ribbon that they perceive as 'the end'. |
Oddly enough, I perceived it quite the opposite. I thought that perhaps those who were overly concerned with "fair play" so nobody has an unfair advantage in the challenges were the ones who viewed this site as the end rather than the means. I assumed trying to improve your photography with the help of others (using both this site and others) was fair means to reach an end.
But I haven't seen the tactics used on the other site...perhaps it's just an error of perception, either on your part or mine? |
If you are gathering comments for the purpsoe of "will this score well with the masses on DPC" then you aren't too concerned with your photography, just your ribbons. Are they are virtual for God's sake. I have gotten opinions from a few DPC'ers on a potential entry, but then I ignore their "opinion" half the time becuase the image still works for me (I appreciate thier opinion, not saying that I don't). That is different than polling for popularity and going with whatever appears popular. |
I guess it really doesn't bother me...I'm also an occasional challenge entrant and I'm okay with others testing the waters. I've asked my wife's opinion before as well, should I stop? |
No, of course not. That's what I said, getting opinions is one thing - I usually still do what my heart says regardless. But putting an image out there and campaigning for the popular vote and or guaging its mass appeal does throw the challenge and people honestly doing it without that ploy are hurt. In the end, I don't relly care anymore either. DPC is whatever it will be, and the challenges stopped mattering to me long ago as far as validating the worthiness of a photo.
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04/07/2005 10:19:22 PM · #27 |
| I tried to win a ribbon, but after 31 trials, I think I should give up and just do what I like doing :) |
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04/07/2005 10:19:50 PM · #28 |
I'd love to know what you're talking about to form an opinion...I just took a look of one definite example of a 'possible DPC entry' and it doesn't bug me in the least. If what I've seen is as 'bad' as it gets then people need to stop taking this so seriously.
Message edited by author 2005-04-07 22:20:18.
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04/07/2005 10:37:46 PM · #29 |
My goal in every challenge I enter is to learn something new, try something different or improve on a previous concept. Simple as that... Some weeks the challenges dont move or stimulate me at all, or Im too busy to take a decent shot; other weeks I get my shot on the first day and eagerly await the start of the challenge. And of course when I have an entry in I cant get away from the update button, I calculate the individual votes Im getting, smile when I get a 10 grimmace at a 1. And of course voting on entries and finding new favourties each week! Talking in the forums and getting to know people on the site. Thats the joy of DPC for me.
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04/07/2005 11:11:29 PM · #30 |
I think what Taco Vendor is talking about is not about people who share their pictures with a few good friends or confidants to help them fine tune their picture. It's people who submit pictures to a site, which are obvious shots that would fit challenges going on at the time they submit them. And they get comments from other dpChallenge members like, "That would be a great challenge entry for such and such a challenge, I'll watch for that one". When you see stuff like that and you notice the huge list of dpChallenge members who are on that person's list of friends, commenting on their pictures. . .well. . .you can't say that it doesn't give someone the edge who is submitting pictures that potentially everyone on that list has seen and will recognize in the challenge as their friend's picture. As a matter of fact, there is one person's picture that was submitted this week on that site that is their very entry in the letters challenge going on right now. So this person is showing his entry to all these dpChallenge members on another site.
It kind of makes me uncomfortable, but I'm not going to raise a big fuss about it, I just don't think it's the right thing to do. I would rather focus on submitting a picture that is good enough to stand on its own and one that I'm proud of.
That's my 2 cents.
Message edited by author 2005-04-07 23:13:14. |
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04/07/2005 11:27:57 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by SandyP:
I think what Taco Vendor is talking about is not about people who share their pictures with a few good friends or confidants to help them fine tune their picture. It's people who submit pictures to a site, which are obvious shots that would fit challenges going on at the time they submit them. And they get comments from other dpChallenge members like, "That would be a great challenge entry for such and such a challenge, I'll watch for that one". When you see stuff like that and you notice the huge list of dpChallenge members who are on that person's list of friends, commenting on their pictures. . .well. . .you can't say that it doesn't give someone the edge who is submitting pictures that potentially everyone on that list has seen and will recognize in the challenge as their friend's picture. As a matter of fact, there is one person's picture that was submitted this week on that site that is their very entry in the letters challenge going on right now. So this person is showing his entry to all these dpChallenge members on another site.
It kind of makes me uncomfortable, but I'm not going to raise a big fuss about it, I just don't think it's the right thing to do. I would rather focus on submitting a picture that is good enough to stand on its own and one that I'm proud of.
That's my 2 cents. |
I hope some of these folks will think twice if they read these posts. I personally think it shows a total disregard for integrity.
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04/08/2005 01:29:19 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Oddly enough, I perceived it quite the opposite. I thought that perhaps those who were overly concerned with "fair play" so nobody has an unfair advantage in the challenges were the ones who viewed this site as the end rather than the means. I assumed trying to improve your photography with the help of others (using both this site and others) was fair means to reach an end.
But I haven't seen the tactics used on the other site...perhaps it's just an error of perception, either on your part or mine? |
Browse through your friends list over there and you can't miss it.
Trying to improve ones photography should be something that is done every single day until one puts their camera away for good. Anyone here that says they have learned all they can will find later that they are still at the beginning of the journey. Trying to improve a single image by having some voters here tell you specifically what to do to get a higher vote from them in a challenge is not proper. The sharing of those images for the simple reason of a group knowing who's is who's so that they can be voted up is not very proper either. No way you can spin that to something good.
Granted, nearly every picture I have seen up high deserves to be there 'in my eyes', a few improper votes or not. But when the difference in a ribbon and 4th can come down to hundreths of a point, those friendly people from elsewhere that give 10's because they know they will get one in return ... well, it makes a big difference. |
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04/08/2005 01:44:26 AM · #33 |
I completely agree with Neil (post further down). Enjoying what you do and exploring your own potential is what's important. The rest is, like they say, "icing on the cake".
Ursula |
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04/08/2005 08:13:53 AM · #34 |
I honestly do understand what you guys are saying...I can see why it might be bothersome, but it doesn't bug me...possibly for two reasons:
1) I haven't seen any shameful stuff over there yet...sure, I've seen comments like "That would be perfect for the extreme action challenge. I would crop a little off the bottom" but that doesn't bug me.
2) Maybe I just don't take this site seriously enough to be bothered by it.
There are lots of things that give people an 'edge'...low clouds and permanent sunsets in Iceland, huge bridges in Brooklyn, motocross tracks next to some people's houses. Some own photoshop CS, some have no editing software. Some have point and shoots, some have 1dsmkII's.
But again, I can see why some could be bothered by it...I'm just listing the possible reasons I'm not.
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04/08/2005 08:39:55 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
2) Maybe I just don't take this site seriously enough to be bothered by it |
fair enough, but keep in mind, the key difference between this site and the other sites is the challenges. and, for the challenges to work, there needs to be some sense of integrity. when you can 'try your image out' with a LOT of friends, you get that unfair advantage that tacovendor is talking about that can make the difference between ribboning or not...
and whether someone takes the site seriously or the challenges seriously, that's a personal choice, but, all the same, the spirit of competition was one of the key elements in building this site, and behaviors that undermine the competition, in my mind, are far worse than editing rules violations. |
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04/08/2005 09:22:13 AM · #36 |
Again, I understand...until somebody shows me an example of this behaviour that's 'worse' than the one I cited below, I think that this is an overreaction.
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04/08/2005 09:53:31 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Again, I understand...until somebody shows me an example of this behaviour that's 'worse' than the one I cited below, I think that this is an overreaction. |
Then in your eyes you won't get past this 'overreaction' that must be in our heads.
A couple of examples have been listed and others here have seen the problem. If you have missed it then so be it, but I doubt you find anyone here that is going to directly point the finger.
If you are not part of the problem that has been described then don't worry about your good name being sullied. If you are (or were) part of the problem then I can understand your defensiveness here. Again, I don't point the finger at any one individual nor am I going to list names. Those that have been doing this know what they are doing and know that it goes against the 'spirit' of this place. |
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04/08/2005 10:00:00 AM · #38 |
TacoVendor, you need to allow room for disagreement. I didn't know what you were talking about before, and after looking into it a tiny bit I didn't find anything offensive.
I'm part of this site every bit as much as you are and I'm letting you know that this member isn't offended, nor do I feel that what I've found goes against the 'spirit' of the site.
You haven't responded to the example I gave below, so I'm not sure if that's the worst of it. If it is, then I personally don't have a problem with it.
It seems a few members are bothered by it...I'm not...big deal, we disagree.
Message edited by author 2005-04-08 10:00:22.
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04/08/2005 10:01:56 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by TacoVendor:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Again, I understand...until somebody shows me an example of this behaviour that's 'worse' than the one I cited below, I think that this is an overreaction. |
Then in your eyes you won't get past this 'overreaction' that must be in our heads.
A couple of examples have been listed and others here have seen the problem. If you have missed it then so be it, but I doubt you find anyone here that is going to directly point the finger.
If you are not part of the problem that has been described then don't worry about your good name being sullied. If you are (or were) part of the problem then I can understand your defensiveness here. Again, I don't point the finger at any one individual nor am I going to list names. Those that have been doing this know what they are doing and know that it goes against the 'spirit' of this place. |
exactly.
mike, as you said, you basically don't care.
as for the rest of it, it really is not in the spirit of competition to publicly post an image that is being voted on. period. |
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04/08/2005 10:05:03 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by skiprow:
mike, as you said, you basically don't care.
as for the rest of it, it really is not in the spirit of competition to publicly post an image that is being voted on. period. |
What do you mean "period"? I disagree with you. Where's my punctuation?
Again, I'm going to feel stupid if the example I've given below isn't a fair example.
If members are literally saying "Will you vote high for my image when you find it?" then that's one thing...but to gauge response before-hand...I don't see the huge deal. (parenthesis)
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04/08/2005 10:08:42 AM · #41 |
mike, it's real simple. i don't have to do the detective work for you. basically, if someone takes a picture and puts it in an online portfolio before and/or during the challenge voting, that completely eliminates the 'anonymous' factor, regardless of how many people see it.
and, when you do the math, if you have 10-20 friends who pop you a 10, that can make a huge difference in where you end up placing. |
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04/08/2005 10:22:23 AM · #42 |
Okay, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one....
However, I think that indicting the dpc'ers on buzznet of 'popping each other a 10' because they're 'buddies' is low.
Message edited by author 2005-04-08 10:23:11.
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04/08/2005 10:25:27 AM · #43 |
Wherever theres a will theres a way.
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04/08/2005 10:26:48 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Okay, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.... |
yeah, i guess so. you haven't convinced me that putting a challenge on display before and/or during the voting period is fair.
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
However, I think that indicting the dpc'ers on buzznet of 'popping each other a 10' because they're 'buddies' is low. |
didn't mean to come across as a wholesale indictment, and apologies to anyone caught in my gross generalization.
on the other hand, if the shoe fits, wear it.
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04/08/2005 10:49:13 AM · #45 |
I'm not challenging anyone's right to argue this, but this is a VERY old issue, only three years ago it was a chat room, and now it's buzznet.
I'm pretty sure that the official conclusion was that there is no way to require a user to keep a picture anonymous. I know every picture my wife submits, and she knows mine. We are both registered, paying members, we offer advice to each other, we critique each other, we help each other.
If you personally believe this to be unethical, that's your privilege. IT IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES. Please don't accuse me, or the buzznetters, of breaking a rule that does not exist. Or even of breaking the spirit of a rule that does not exist.
Sounds a little like a witch hunt to me. "Oh, witches are not illegal? Let's make a new law." |
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04/08/2005 11:12:53 AM · #46 |
nards -
I understand completely where you are coming from. I think the understanding here is that someone will likely see a submission before it is put in, and quite likely that there is discussion about how it should look, etc. I'll be right up front and say that I have participated in such activities but on a very small and personal scale - my wife and another member here.
I am also not naive to think that buzznet is the root of all evil in here either. It is just the one that stands out the most. As I have stated a couple of times now, just because someone is at buzznet does not mean they are doing this (or even have a clue about it). But the overt action of putting a photo up over there while voting is going on over here just so that the 'friends' know which ones to vote up is not proper.
Have I given a higher score based on knowing that a particular picture belongs to someone? Yes. Has it been done for me? Not quite sure, but I believe it has. I can also truthfully state that it would have been done between me and one close friend that would see every one of my offline photos as well. I expect that a majority of others here fall in this same category. Note: this does not mean I think it is completely right, but an admission of understanding that this is the norm.
A rule does not exist that says Tiger Woods can't take a tractor out to the Augusta golf course the day before the Masters starts so that he can trim the rough. Does that mean it would be ok? If so, then why doesn't he (or any other golfer) do that? Also, the golf rules say that if a ball hits someone in the gallery and bounces back into play, where it finishes is where it is played from. No rule exists saying that I cannot wait along side the fairway for a friend to hit the ball to me so that I can 'accidentally' knock it farther ahead. "If you personally believe this to be unethical, that's your privilege. IT IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES."
I know I started this here, but I will put my last words into it as I now am only repeating myself post after post in this topic...
When an individual is putting their pictures up at a place for the simple reason of have a substantial group of people know who's is who's so that they can gather in more 9's and 10's (based only on who the image belongs to) then yes, I have an issue with it.
Personally, if I see any of those photos that are being floated about over there on any of the upcoming challenges then I will mark them a 1. Is it against the rules for me to give a low score? "If you personally believe this to be unethical, that's your privilege. IT IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES." |
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04/08/2005 11:26:36 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by TacoVendor:
A rule does not exist that says Tiger Woods can't take a tractor out to the Augusta golf course the day before the Masters starts so that he can trim the rough. |
On a lighter note, I think there is a rule against this...but to be honest, I know less about golf than I do about taxidermy.
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04/08/2005 11:28:28 AM · #48 |
By the way, I am totally (personally) opposed to posting challenge entries anywhere on the web either before or during the challenge in such a way that they are visible to the general public. Sharing with friends, family, mentors, and advisers for advice rather than to influence voting, I personally regard as a different issue.
I personally agree that influencing voting is not an honorable thing to do; my point was that I don't think it was ever found to be technically illegal or even definitively morally wrong.
Yep, Taco, good point about Tiger Woods AND the bounceback rule. Sometimes common sense should prevail, but in this case the letter of the law - I THINK - protects the buzznetters.
If you personally believe me to be an absolute idiot, that is indeed your privilege. AND IT MIGHT EVEN BE TRUE :)
By the way, this thread is officially hijacked... How does Site Council want us hijackers to compensate? I've forgotten the proper procedure! :) |
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04/08/2005 11:34:43 AM · #49 |
yes, bernhard, this is an old issue.
you are right, there is no way to logistically enforce it. it is NOT against any written rules anywhere on the site.
however, philosophically, there is a HUGE difference between sharing an image with your wife, or one or two others, and putting it on display in public.
in the DPC - POTD thread, you stated "I personally would NOT want to see non-challenge entries become a part of the front page. The entire site is about the challenge. I don't want to see something hokey like a POTD Council, or a site council vote, or anything that takes away from the front page being where the WINNERS of the CHALLENGE are seen." [my italics for emphasis.]
it seems to me that you would be interested in promoting some sort of self-policing that would promote the integrity of the challenges, rather than justifying something like this.
i'm eating some of my words, you've already addressed my last point
Originally posted by nard656:
By the way, I am totally (personally) opposed to posting challenge entries anywhere on the web either before or during the challenge in such a way that they are visible to the general public. Sharing with friends, family, mentors, and advisers for advice rather than to influence voting, I personally regard as a different issue.
I personally agree that influencing voting is not an honorable thing to do; my point was that I don't think it was ever found to be technically illegal or even definitively morally wrong. |
but, in the end, you are correct. this doesn't need a new rule, or a witch hunt. as long as individuals stay within the rules as written, they are free to do whatever they want to take better images and get higher scores, even if that means lobbying for votes. just because you are a member of buzznet or whatever, that doesn't make you guilty of anything, nor does it mean you are lobbying for votes.
edit: all ya'll type faster than me ;-)
Message edited by author 2005-04-08 12:03:33. |
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04/08/2005 12:01:14 PM · #50 |
I've been demoted! Who is nard526?? :)
Message edited by author 2005-04-08 12:01:39. |
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