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04/02/2005 02:57:00 AM · #26
Originally posted by TooCool:

Originally posted by sfboatright:

I think that's the point. You used editing techinques to remove major elements from within the final composition.


What major elements were removed outside of cropping?


You removed the other stone from the top of final composition. This was not a minor element. You basically cropped it out and then painted that area back in using your crop tool.

IMO, this is against the spirit of the rules.
04/02/2005 02:57:36 AM · #27
Originally posted by sfboatright:

I would definitely be against expanding the border to change the composition, because in order to do that, you have to decide on a fill color, which is simply another way of painting on your image. This is VERY different from cropping.


But according to the SC's position on BradP's shot using a border to change a shot is acceptable...

04/02/2005 02:57:41 AM · #28
Originally posted by sfboatright:

I would definitely be against expanding the border to change the composition, because in order to do that, you have to decide on a fill color, which is simply another way of painting on your image. This is VERY different from cropping.


but where do you draw the line on adding a border? lets say you have a white isolated image and you add a 10 pixel border to each side or a 100 pixel border to each side or a 300 pixel border to each side... where can one draw the line saying x amount is legal but y amount is illegal?
04/02/2005 02:58:22 AM · #29
Originally posted by nico_blue:

Originally posted by sfboatright:

I would definitely be against expanding the border to change the composition, because in order to do that, you have to decide on a fill color, which is simply another way of painting on your image. This is VERY different from cropping.


but where do you draw the line on adding a border? lets say you have a white isolated image and you add a 10 pixel border to each side or a 100 pixel border to each side or a 300 pixel border to each side... where can one draw the line saying x amount is legal but y amount is illegal?


It depends on what you're changing.

Again...."spirit" of the rules.
04/02/2005 03:00:30 AM · #30
Originally posted by nico_blue:

Originally posted by sfboatright:

I would definitely be against expanding the border to change the composition, because in order to do that, you have to decide on a fill color, which is simply another way of painting on your image. This is VERY different from cropping.


but where do you draw the line on adding a border? lets say you have a white isolated image and you add a 10 pixel border to each side or a 100 pixel border to each side or a 300 pixel border to each side... where can one draw the line saying x amount is legal but y amount is illegal?


Two issues.....one, he used the crop tool to remove a major element from within the composition of the original (and final) image. That, to me, is clearly against the spirit of the rules.

Second, he used an uneven border, which the rules don't clearly address, but I would wager most people wouldn't be comfortable with.

Message edited by author 2005-04-02 03:01:07.
04/02/2005 03:01:09 AM · #31
Originally posted by sfboatright:

Originally posted by nico_blue:

Originally posted by sfboatright:

I would definitely be against expanding the border to change the composition, because in order to do that, you have to decide on a fill color, which is simply another way of painting on your image. This is VERY different from cropping.


but where do you draw the line on adding a border? lets say you have a white isolated image and you add a 10 pixel border to each side or a 100 pixel border to each side or a 300 pixel border to each side... where can one draw the line saying x amount is legal but y amount is illegal?


It depends on what you're changing.

Again...."spirit" of the rules.


I just checked the rules and there is actually nothing on borders now, so I dont see the 'spirit of the rules' clause applying if there is no mention of it in the rules to begin with.

Message edited by author 2005-04-02 03:01:48.
04/02/2005 03:01:56 AM · #32
Originally posted by TooCool:

Originally posted by timj351:

Tools like the clone tool can only be used in specific ways as the challenge rules clearly states. You can't just use them in any manner you want. Please re-read the rules again for more clarification.

T


I have tried very hard to keep this as non confrontational as possible (which is something that is difficult for me. As SC you know I have rifled feathers before.) however I am slightly insulted that after almost 2 years here you would imply that I don't understand the rules or as SC seems to go by the 'spirit' of the rules. After level adjustments I removed minor elements from the shot. The rest were removed by the cropping before any other adjustments were performed.


And it is not my intention to insult you. I have tried to make that clear. You are clearly upset by the disqualification and that is understandable. But the point that you seem to be missing is that the SC has studied your image and we voted on a DQ based on the rules as we understand them. For the majority of users here that is good enough and they move on but you have decided to make this an issue and we tried hard to accommodate you. We have answered all of your questions as well as we can and we have even decided to discuss this further in private. I explained all of this to you already and I said that if we make any changes we will inform you. I'm sorry if you think all of this is not enough. If you want to continue with these threads that's fine by me. I just don't know what else you expect it to solve.

T
04/02/2005 03:03:51 AM · #33
Originally posted by nico_blue:

Originally posted by sfboatright:

Originally posted by nico_blue:

Originally posted by sfboatright:

I would definitely be against expanding the border to change the composition, because in order to do that, you have to decide on a fill color, which is simply another way of painting on your image. This is VERY different from cropping.


but where do you draw the line on adding a border? lets say you have a white isolated image and you add a 10 pixel border to each side or a 100 pixel border to each side or a 300 pixel border to each side... where can one draw the line saying x amount is legal but y amount is illegal?


It depends on what you're changing.

Again...."spirit" of the rules.


I just checked the rules and there is actually nothing on borders now, so I dont see 'spirit of the rules' applying if there is no mention of it in the rules to begin with.


Sorry...my post was supposed to be a reply to TC's question about BradP's image....I hit the wrong button.

You can use a border to change an image, but it is possible to change it in such a way that removes major elements from the final composition that would have otherwise been in it.....bypassing the clone tool, but accomplishing the same effect.
04/02/2005 03:06:56 AM · #34
Ok....as I'm just repeating myself now....I'm done.

No offense, TC.....I actually voted your image pretty high. My advice is to just roll with it and learn for next time.

:-)
04/02/2005 03:07:45 AM · #35
Originally posted by sfboatright:

Originally posted by nico_blue:

Originally posted by sfboatright:

Originally posted by nico_blue:

Originally posted by sfboatright:

I would definitely be against expanding the border to change the composition, because in order to do that, you have to decide on a fill color, which is simply another way of painting on your image. This is VERY different from cropping.


but where do you draw the line on adding a border? lets say you have a white isolated image and you add a 10 pixel border to each side or a 100 pixel border to each side or a 300 pixel border to each side... where can one draw the line saying x amount is legal but y amount is illegal?


It depends on what you're changing.

Again...."spirit" of the rules.


I just checked the rules and there is actually nothing on borders now, so I dont see 'spirit of the rules' applying if there is no mention of it in the rules to begin with.


Sorry...my post was supposed to be a reply to TC's question about BradP's image....I hit the wrong button.

You can use a border to change an image, but it is possible to change it in such a way that removes major elements from the final composition that would have otherwise been in it.....bypassing the clone tool, but accomplishing the same effect.


You are thinking of painting over an image i.e. drawing rectangles over parts of the image, but what I was imagining is if you cropped the image then added a border. My question now is is there a limit on a size of a border than can be added? for example a 100x100 image with a border that makes it 640X460...
04/02/2005 03:08:32 AM · #36
Originally posted by TooCool:

There is no rule that states that any border must be even on all sides, otherwise this shot by BradP:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/264/thumb/116340.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/264/thumb/116340.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
would have been disqualified as it is not symetrical and also crosses the shot itself...

Oh crap ----------off to go hide again!----------->
04/02/2005 03:10:00 AM · #37
Originally posted by BradP:

Originally posted by TooCool:

There is no rule that states that any border must be even on all sides, otherwise this shot by BradP:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/264/thumb/116340.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/264/thumb/116340.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
would have been disqualified as it is not symetrical and also crosses the shot itself...

Oh crap ----------off to go hide again!----------->


lol, it seems that whenever the word border is mentioned in a thread, your name almost always seems to follow!
04/02/2005 03:10:52 AM · #38
Originally posted by BradP:

Oh crap ----------off to go hide again!----------->


No ya don't have to hide this time. I'm using your shot to argue FOR my side this time... ;-)
04/02/2005 03:14:05 AM · #39
im done for tonight, hopefully someone answers the question i brought up several times over about adding a seamless border to a 100x100 image that makes it 640x460...
04/02/2005 03:28:48 AM · #40
Originally posted by sfboatright:


Two issues.....one, he used the crop tool to remove a major element from within the composition of the original (and final) image. That, to me, is clearly against the spirit of the rules.


Hang on... I always thought we could crop just as we liked, leaving out half of the original shot if we wanted? Same as digital zoom. And that the major element removal rule only applied to the cropped image? The rules just say cropping is allowed...
04/02/2005 03:33:14 AM · #41
Originally posted by tazza:

Originally posted by sfboatright:


Two issues.....one, he used the crop tool to remove a major element from within the composition of the original (and final) image. That, to me, is clearly against the spirit of the rules.


Hang on... I always thought we could crop just as we liked, leaving out half of the original shot if we wanted? Same as digital zoom. And that the major element removal rule only applied to the cropped image? The rules just say cropping is allowed...


Right....but what TC did is crop out the offending portion and then put it back by making the canvas larger. To me, that's the same as painting over a major element.

No one is saying you can't crop your image, but just like any other tool, there are appropriate and innapropriate ways of using it, IMO.
04/02/2005 03:41:09 AM · #42
Ok, I see. thanks for the clarification. I got worried there for a minute! So it's all a matter of borders, really. I think I agree with you though. Even though the tools used are all legal, the end result is the removal of a major element...
04/02/2005 03:44:33 AM · #43
Exactly.

:-)
04/02/2005 05:02:30 AM · #44
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/313/thumb/150976.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/313/thumb/150976.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

I was able to create this same pic by just adjusting the levels. The artist didn't remove any elements.

I also feel that you removed a major element of your pic as well. And I agree that by picking a huge border, you basically painted.

No offense, I did vote high on your pic.

Someone tried to get mine DQ'd too. I wasn't happy.

Message edited by author 2005-04-02 05:03:14.
04/02/2005 05:53:18 AM · #45
After seeing your before and after photos, I completely agree with the SC to DQ this entry.

If you had merely cropped out the top part (without any snow) and left it cropped and not cloned out the other patches without snow then I doubt it would have been DQ.

It was a 'Basic Editing' challenge. I don't think cloning is allowed in Basic Editing challenges. I am not even sure that this much cloning and removal/replacement would even have been allowed by the Advanced Editing rules.

The major issue is that you REPLACED that top part you cropped with empty or white space.

NOTHING in the Swans was replaced, it was just the adjustment to the WHOLE image (brightness/contrast). I think you read that it was 1/4 cropped and read into that the rest of the image is white fill. What confuses the issue is the "original" which is also obviously the 1/4 cropped shot BEFORE the brightness and contrast.

If you are basing your argument here on the comparision with the swans photo then your arguement is flawed. I hope this doesn't agravate your feelings - just trying help with the explanation and add my 2c.
04/02/2005 06:05:09 AM · #46
Originally posted by seriocomic:

After seeing your before and after photos, I completely agree with the SC to DQ this entry.

If you had merely cropped out the top part (without any snow) and left it cropped and not cloned out the other patches without snow then I doubt it would have been DQ.

It was a 'Basic Editing' challenge. I don't think cloning is allowed in Basic Editing challenges. I am not even sure that this much cloning and removal/replacement would even have been allowed by the Advanced Editing rules.

The major issue is that you REPLACED that top part you cropped with empty or white space.

NOTHING in the Swans was replaced, it was just the adjustment to the WHOLE image (brightness/contrast). I think you read that it was 1/4 cropped and read into that the rest of the image is white fill. What confuses the issue is the "original" which is also obviously the 1/4 cropped shot BEFORE the brightness and contrast.

If you are basing your argument here on the comparision with the swans photo then your arguement is flawed. I hope this doesn't agravate your feelings - just trying help with the explanation and add my 2c.


You might want to get your facts straight.. "Cemetery" is indeed a member (advanced editing) challenge. Cloning is allowed.

I have nothing to offer for the DQ though. I don't agree or disagree with it. The SC has a job to do, they did it, sometimes we have to move on.

Message edited by author 2005-04-02 06:05:27.
04/02/2005 06:28:34 AM · #47
Just to clarify the issue, at least as I see it, consider the following arbitrary "before and after" images:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30861/thumb/162260.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30861/thumb/162260.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30861/thumb/162261.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30861/thumb/162261.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

The first one is a full frame image of an "object" in a detailed surround.

In the second one I cropped the original down tight to the object, then added an extremely large white border. I then cropped the bordered image to place the object where I wanted it in the new "frame" and resized to 640 pixels.

As I understand it, this is essentially what was done to the image under question. It is in NO way comparable to what was done in the "swans" image, nor in my opinion is it within the spirit of the site's editing rules.

Just one man's opinion. This does NOT mean TooCool is a "bad" person or that he "cheated", just that in this case he pushed the envelope a little too far. Again, in my opinion. I agree with SC in this case.

Robt.
04/02/2005 07:10:16 AM · #48
Originally posted by TooCool:

and this is my original only resized...
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/9906/thumb/162234.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/9906/thumb/162234.jpg', '/') + 1) . '


The thing that gets me is that we are all trying to learn and when I look at this original image I can see how with a little bit of effort at the site before the photo was taken it could have easily provided an photo that could be edited in basic rules to give the same results.

I too kick myself when I get home and realise how such a simple thing like moving a stick or in this case some leaves and use the surrounding snow to completely cover the ground could have produced a much higher quality shot.

Its part of the learning process and I don't believe it will help us learn if we use creative editing to achieve what we should have created on site.
04/02/2005 07:37:57 AM · #49
There was a similar disqualification recently. I can't remember exactly who it was but she was very upset. She used levels to remove a couch in the background. Maybe the pink challenge. Can anyone find that thread?
04/02/2005 08:34:03 AM · #50
Originally posted by cloudsme:

There was a similar disqualification recently. I can't remember exactly who it was but she was very upset. She used levels to remove a couch in the background. Maybe the pink challenge. Can anyone find that thread?


It was KDO
Link to thread here.
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